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Thread: O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

  1. #2521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    I can’t comment on USA or Germany but back in 2020 I commented on first person anecdotes about Spain systematically under reporting Covid deaths. This is supported by later independent studies, so I don’t think Spain is a good comparator
    I’m not sure how the likes of you and I would know, Andy. I was talking more about local legislation and people’s adherence to rules.
    I suppose I’ve spent about six weeks in Spain since the pandemic began and I would certainly suggest that observation of the rules around mask wearing is a lot better, and more enforced, in Spain than the UK.
    There seems to be a school of thought over here that believes mask wearing is some sort of infringement of civil liberty. IMO the exact opposite is true.

  2. #2522
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Oh well...if Farage is ‘on it now’ that’ll help. The man known for choosing winners...UKIP, Trump, Djokovic...has a latest ‘cause celebre’.
    If that makes you feel better...so be it. I won’t waste time arguing with such gullibility.

    Yesterday I largely avoided Party politics because this is to do with common sense.
    As it happens I have a first hand knowledge of how Covid is manifesting itself and being responded to in four different countries...the UK, the USA, Germany and Spain.
    In the former two people are becoming careless and falling over themselves to get rid of restrictions and return to ‘normal’. In the latter two they have, in my experience, been far more cautious and responsible. Guess which two countries have the worse Covid death and case figures. It’s no coincidence.
    You may be right.
    But you are missing my point. I want the truth across the board from everyone.
    The other day, the BBC reported that 288 people had "died " from COVID, as cases continue to rise.
    Then seconds later, adds on, that many of those had tested for COVID in the previous 28 days and probably didn't die from it.
    No facts figures etc.

    But the narrative is still pushing the worst case possible.
    Now if those Official figures of 17 000 deaths in 2 years, solely from covid are true.
    How can we just be banging on about 180 000 deaths only?

    You don't seem to grasp, that as a population we deserve to know the exact truth.
    So are the other countries reporting exactly the same as us?
    If not, why not?

  3. #2523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    You may be right.
    But you are missing my point. I want the truth across the board from everyone.

    You don't seem to grasp, that as a population we deserve to know the exact truth.
    Lol...so now that it suits your ‘cause’ (which I have great sympathy with) you want the ‘exact truth’...‘across the board’.

    Perhaps then you shouldn’t have spent years aligning yourself with two of the most dishonest and self serving politicians in living memory.

  4. #2524
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Lol...so now that it suits your ‘cause’ (which I have great sympathy with) you want the ‘exact truth’...‘across the board’.

    Perhaps then you shouldn’t have spent years aligning yourself with two of the most dishonest and self serving politicians in living memory.
    I'm talking world wide, not just your personal anti tory vendetta.
    It isn't just this country that the same questions are being asked.
    Let your mask slip there

  5. #2525
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    I’m not sure how the likes of you and I would know, Andy. I was talking more about local legislation and people’s adherence to rules.
    I suppose .
    No you weren’t you were using them as a reason for relative cases/deaths and my response suggested that one of the comparisons made (Spain) was not like for like due to their systematic under reporting. Don’t make comparisons if you don’t want them challenging. No argument about local legislation or adherence to it, I’ve gone into detail about adherence in Spain before which at total level agreed with yours but I won’t repeat the detail as it set Swale off last time

  6. #2526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    No you weren’t you were using them as a reason for relative cases/deaths and my response suggested that one of the comparisons made (Spain) was not like for like due to their systematic under reporting. Don’t make comparisons if you don’t want them challenging. No argument about local legislation or adherence to it, I’ve gone into detail about adherence in Spain before which at total level agreed with yours but I won’t repeat the detail as it set Swale off last time
    Bit stroppy. I suggest you read my post again, stop telling me what I wrote and leave your tedious quarrel with Swale out of something that has nothing to do with my response.
    For the record my point was that...in my experience acceptance of and adherence to the rules, not least mask wearing, is better observed in Spain and Germany than the UK.
    The figures support that and I find it worrying that we, in the UK, are about to relax those rules very, imo, prematurely.
    You want to challenge those ‘figures’...fine...I’m in no position to and wouldn’t pretend to know how.

  7. #2527
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    i will say regarding masks.
    In Thailand, Bangkok was very strict with that, walking around and in shops etc. But once you get in a bar out of sight, then forget it.
    I'm even including the Thais in that.

    Hua Hin was good, but there is not many bars anyway, mainly eating places. As such, no one bothered wearing on, even staff.

    Airports were very good with it and free masks /sanitiser handed out throughout the journeys. That part did please me.

  8. #2528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    WELL WELL WELL, WOULD YOU ADAM AND EVE IT,


    26-03-2020, 10:10 AM#19swaledale swaledale is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Well there’s an unholy alliance if ever there was one. Good though that people of such different persuasions can set aside such differences to occasionally agree.

    I completely agree with your second paragraph but beyond that I’m puzzled.

    Clearly you make a fair point about the impact on the NHS, but to suggest that ‘it probably won’t result in many more deaths than usual’ makes no sense at all to me, as the figures and scenes that have emerged from both Italy and Spain over just the last month or so would suggest.

    You do actually ‘stop it’ by slowing down the ‘rate of transmission’ allowing time for a vaccine to be discovered and developed. The trick then is to make such a vaccine universally available rather than just another means to make a vast profit.

    That last sentence may be naively idealistic on my part, but then I speak as one who believes that it shouldn’t take a crisis to bring about free on site parking for NHS workers, and is still coming to terms with the most right wing PM since Thatcher apparently embracing a philosophy more akin to Communism.
    RA the one question you need to ask is what is Italy's (and other countries) death rate from coronavirus as compared to the normal death rate?

    Because without that information you have no context other than the number of cases is very high.

    So in the Uk in average year there are 56,000 "excess winter deaths" most of which are from respiratory diseases.

    If this year that rises to say 76,000, then we will know that coronavirus killed an additional 20,000. BUT that isn't likely and the government experts have admitted there will be considerable overlap between those killed by Corvid - 19 and some other disease. In fact they haven't taken into account in their modelling of these other deaths! I would put a substantial amount of money on there being minimal additional deaths due to Corvid-19, most would have died anyway.

    We don't even know the mortality rate, because thousands of people will have been infected but not tested it could be very low indeed.

    Yes the 7,000 or so deaths in Italy (90% over 70's) sounds bad, but if 6,500 would have died anyway this year then its a different picture.

    There wont be a vaccine for 18 months and therefore we will return to something like normal once we can test for infection and immunity. The collapse of the world economy will likely kill more people than Corvid-19.
    And your point is?

    You were claiming a specific figure of deaths were due to to Covid and the rest weren't. Having looked at the ONS stats, your not even quoting them correctly, your cherry picking and selectively quoting in a way which suits your view. One can't just seize upon a set of figures and because it suits you use these to claim your view is correct! I mean thats what politicians do and as you often post, they are all stupid.

    As I did point out, t's interesting that the overall level of excess deaths over the period of the pandemic, that is deaths over and above what would be expected, has declined - this means that overall deaths have reduced, no doubt as a result of the measures taken.

    Its also interesting that nobody talks about Sweden who did not lockdown and to my knowledge haven't ever, during the pandemic, their death rate is not out of the ordinary, but then they do have an economy which leveys taxes and provides good services.

    I don't disagree, that the vast majority who have died due to Covid-19 infections would ahve died anyway, its a proven fact that respiratory infections, pneumonia, flu etc, are what generally finishes off people who are old, or have health issues.

  9. #2529
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    Interestingly, perhaps...been to a major theatre performance this afternoon. On entry and pre performance everyone reminded of the requirement to wear masks throughout the performance to ‘help keep each other safe and keep the theatre open’.
    Wise words, intelligent sentiments and not a word about the Government’s relaxation of the rules.
    Seems odd that we suddenly seem to be being governed by politicians rather than scientists again now that there’s some good news...allegedly!

  10. #2530
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    How many people are in the same boat as me? I'm no longer a child, 67 years young, 68 in 4 weeks time. I have several underlying health conditions for which I take a combined total of 8 different medicines a day. I will also admit to being slightly overweight. I am also fit. Cycling frequently, hopefully there will be football games to referee again shortly. I have annual check ups including an ECG and a battery of other checks. My cardiologist is of the opinion that I ought to at least reach the current average age for males which is 80 something.

    Now, let's say I contract Covid in March and pass away in April. Will I have died OF or WITH Covid? I would say with as my expectation and the opinion of my cardiologist is 15 years maybe more. If I hadn't got Covid, I wouldn't have died being the argument/fact.

    Yes, a lot of people who were elderly and also had underlying health conditions have died. How many of them would probably still be alive if they hadn't caught Covid? Quite a lot I would imagine.

    OK, so it's not an exact science that I've used but I don't think I'm wildly out of sync with the truth.

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