Who will lead the line against Watford?

[Andy_Faber]

No we didn’t, we lost 2-1 and no, it didn’t...what I actually said was that Lampard couldn’t be ‘absolved’ of responsibility for where we are now.

Tbh I think we’ve been largely in decline since Wembley 2014. Lots of people associated with the club have to take their share of responsibility
for that and Lampard is no exception.

I already made the depressing manV man comparison of the 14/15 team to the current team and we are a division worse everywhere, plus I WANTED to watch that team even knowing we’d lose some, I’d rather watch F1 than our current team. Lampard kept us on life support without thinking of a cure

[swaledale]

No we didn’t, we lost 2-1 and no, it didn’t...what I actually said was that Lampard couldn’t be ‘absolved’ of responsibility for where we are now.

Tbh I think we’ve been largely in decline since Wembley 2014. Lots of people associated with the club have to take their share of responsibility
for that and Lampard is no exception.

We lost by one ****ing goal! 1-0 2-1 its the same difference, we lost to the odd goal to a team with far more resources than us and beat the Scum in the semi final!! Maybe thats why I have good memories of frank? Anyway now I'm being picked up on a minor detail I know your missing the point!

Frank had the fall out from Rowatt walking off to deal with, same difference, I get it that people get pissed when a manager goes, unless of course they have been calling for his head, but a lot of this is pure conjecture - the delay could well have been Mel holding out for the compo or it whatever, it was unfortunate and didn't do us any favours but then thats the Derby way it seems.

As for criticising Lampard for his loan policy, well fair enough he should have made do with what Mel let him buy instead of using his contacts. Again on paper and judging what they did at former clubs, his purchases should have been good championship players, but we have had a succession of players - Johnson, Butterfield to name but two, who we have paid handsomely for, who were good at their former clubs and failed to produce for Derby, don't know why that is but there you go.

Can't for the life of me see how anyone other than Mel and his advisors are to blame, you could make a case for Rowatt leaving like hedid, but then again you don't know what went on between him and Mel.

So name a signing of Cocu who has come good?

[MadAmster]

Mel told Rowett there was no money to spend. There was up the A50.

[ramAnag]

We lost by one ****ing goal! 1-0 2-1 its the same difference, we lost to the odd goal to a team with far more resources than us and beat the Scum in the semi final!! Maybe thats why I have good memories of frank? Anyway now I'm being picked up on a minor detail I know your missing the point!

Frank had the fall out from Rowatt walking off to deal with, same difference, I get it that people get pissed when a manager goes, unless of course they have been calling for his head, but a lot of this is pure conjecture - the delay could well have been Mel holding out for the compo or it whatever, it was unfortunate and didn't do us any favours but then thats the Derby way it seems.

As for criticising Lampard for his loan policy, well fair enough he should have made do with what Mel let him buy instead of using his contacts. Again on paper and judging what they did at former clubs, his purchases should have been good championship players, but we have had a succession of players - Johnson, Butterfield to name but two, who we have paid handsomely for, who were good at their former clubs and failed to produce for Derby, don't know why that is but there you go.

Can't for the life of me see how anyone other than Mel and his advisors are to blame, you could make a case for Rowatt leaving like hedid, but then again you don't know what went on between him and Mel.

So name a signing of Cocu who has come good?

Fair enough, perhaps I was being pedantic getting the score right at Wembley...1-0...2-1...you’re right, it doesn’t really matter.

Not such minor points are...for all his ability, via name and first managerial position, to attract attention and those three loanees, Lampard’s record was virtually identical to Rowett’s. Any progress over that season was extremely limited and when he went, wasting most of the summer in the process and taking the backbone of the side with him, we were probably worse off than when he arrived.

We probably won’t agree but that’s how I see it...that’s all.

As regards signings. It’s early days for most of Cocu’s. Clarke is obviously the stand out and yes, I know he’s another loanee, but he wasn’t well known, took a bit of finding and, most importantly of all...he’s back for a second season.
Of the others, at the risk of tempting fate, I think Marshall looks the best keeper we’ve had for years and I think Byrne looks a more than capable replacement for Bogle.

Those three alone look pretty good to me, especially in comparison with Evans and FloJo and I’ve yet to see Jozwiak play so can’t comment on him.

Finally, I didn’t criticise Lampard for his ‘loan policy’. I was all for it...it’s often a crucial part of the way forward, but only if you, and they, stick around to build on any progress made. If they all clear off after ten months then self evidently the club is back to square one...or worse, and that, imo is what happened under Lampard who, for all his ‘bounce’ and chest beating, hasn’t - as Ram59 pointed out - helped us out at all since.

[Geoff Parkstone]

If loanees "stick around to build on any progress made"???

How many loanees have we ever had that did that (apart from Clark)? I can't think of any, although we may have bought the odd one at end of loan. That wasn't ever on the cards for Frank's 3 - we were just a finishing school.

Loans are very much live by the sword, die by the sword deals. Those 3 helped us to a good season but, possibly even if we had gone up, they weren't going to stick around. Let's look at who we then got - Dowell, hmmm, Patterson, hmmmm. Frank's loans may have been ephemeral, Cocu's (Clark apart) were, well, ****.

I believe the Frank concept was to buy ourselves up and then use the premier dollars to buy staying up. He had a one year mission, almost succeeded, gave the fans hope but ultimately didn't quite make it. I can't imagine there was any attempt at squad building and that approach was sanctioned from above as a short term punt by an ever more desperate owner.

Frank was a last shake of the dice before Nigel Mark 2, austerity, empty coffers, FFP restraints and reverting to selling club status. Which is where we are. Try to build with youth, but that takes time, something the media and many fans don't want to see. But at least crowds are still at the same levels as near the end of last season as we hovered in 7th before ultimately flopping.....

[ramAnag]

If loanees "stick around to build on any progress made"???

How many loanees have we ever had that did that (apart from Clark)? I can't think of any, although we may have bought the odd one at end of loan. That wasn't ever on the cards for Frank's 3 - we were just a finishing school.

Loans are very much live by the sword, die by the sword deals. Those 3 helped us to a good season but, possibly even if we had gone up, they weren't going to stick around. Let's look at who we then got - Dowell, hmmm, Patterson, hmmmm. Frank's loans may have been ephemeral, Cocu's (Clark apart) were, well, ****.

I believe the Frank concept was to buy ourselves up and then use the premier dollars to buy staying up. He had a one year mission, almost succeeded, gave the fans hope but ultimately didn't quite make it. I can't imagine there was any attempt at squad building and that approach was sanctioned from above as a short term punt by an ever more desperate owner.

Frank was a last shake of the dice before Nigel Mark 2, austerity, empty coffers, FFP restraints and reverting to selling club status. Which is where we are. Try to build with youth, but that takes time, something the media and many fans don't want to see. But at least crowds are still at the same levels as near the end of last season as we hovered in 7th before ultimately flopping.....

Point accepted although I was referring more to the manager ‘sticking around’.

Clarke apart? Not many...although of the current and very recent squad, Wisdom and Martin both arrived with us via loans.

Beyond that I think you’re missing the point. Did Lampard achieve anything with Derby and, more importantly, were we in a better position when he walked away? The answers are respectively imo...very little and no.

Numerous individuals from McClaren to Cocu have had some part to play in our demise of the last six or seven years and those individuals include Lampard which is all I have said.

Of course Morris has been the common denominator for most of that period and has made some appalling decisions and appointments, but I find it hard to criticise him too much when he has dug deep into his own pockets so often, is a Derby fan through and through, and has regularly been let down by a variety of alleged professionals at the club.

[Andy_Faber]

Point accepted although I was referring more to the manager ‘sticking around’.

Clarke apart? Not many...although of the current and very recent squad, Wisdom and Martin both arrived with us via loans.

Beyond that I think you’re missing the point. Did Lampard achieve anything with Derby and, more importantly, were we in a better position when he walked away? The answers are respectively imo...very little and no.

Numerous individuals from McClaren to Cocu have had some part to play in our demise of the last six or seven years and those individuals include Lampard which is all I have said.

Of course Morris has been the common denominator for most of that period and has made some appalling decisions and appointments, but I find it hard to criticise him too much when he has dug deep into his own pockets so often, is a Derby fan through and through, and has regularly been let down by a variety of alleged professionals at the club.

I think the difference with a Lampard was it was pretty clear he was ‘going for it’ and having seen too many half decent Derby sides just fail I’d have taken it any way he dished it up and bugger the following season. He (like McLaren, like eventually Smith) made me want to get to the Stadium.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Yes you are right to suggest he's invested heavily, but so have many wealthy individuals who have adopted a less hands on approach and let the football experts deal with strategy and personnel. Let's say, charitably, that perhaps having a fan as owner is not necessarily as good a thing as we had hoped. We seem to have approached every season as a one off, and displayed little cohesive longer term vision and joined up thinking.

Still, when his interest wanes and someone else comes in, he will own a nice building site for a retail and hotel expansion once he's cleared the site.

[mistaram]

I think we can argue Cocu verses Lampard for ever Its a bit unjust to say Lampards three loans for us to Wembley we used 25players that season and the three loans were unavailable for a total of 21games between them . Cocu we will all agree has had many problems in and off the pitch . I go to football mainly to be entertained , With Lampards team the football was usually worth watching . With Cocu I can't say that he's had 52games and I've probably seen us play well and been entertained ( not winning) about five times That's not good enough his possession game is boring . If and I hope I'm wrong because I like him ,he is still our manager at Xmas we will be relegated . I know the signings we have made are clearly not his choice ,doubt he's ever seen any of them play . But when you spend what little transfer we've been able to generate on a young Polish winger who doesn't know the Championship then Cocu must take responsibility for that . Imo an insane signing when there were free signing wingers who have been good Championship players for years Adomah, Magohma Menzies-Lang our recruitment team are a joke . These are players who were doing it regularly last season not like Ibe years ago

[ramAnag]

I think the difference with a Lampard was it was pretty clear he was ‘going for it’ and having seen too many half decent Derby sides just fail I’d have taken it any way he dished it up and bugger the following season. He (like McLaren, like eventually Smith) made me want to get to the Stadium.

Did he. Really? Or is that just the rose coloured tint from Old Trafford and Elland Road? There were good results and performances, as there have been at times under Cocu, but there was also some real dross from Lampard including ‘spankings’ from Villa and Leeds and home defeats to the likes of Millwall if I remember rightly. I don’t remember him handling Johnson or Marriott well when the going got tough, and we had our traditional New Year collapse when I really don’t remember many being desperate to go to the Stadium. Certainly you can’t begin to compare the football under Lampard with the genuine excitement produced by Jim Smith, post Stimac’s arrival, and McClaren Mk1.

Can’t argue with GP’s first paragraph and as mista suggests we could argue pointlessly for ever over the relative merits of Cocu and Lampard.
I’m just not sure that Frank is all he’s cracked up to be and I certainly think that, despite his undeniable failings, Cocu seems to have been dogged by rank bad luck ever since he arrived.

Questions are I suppose...without entering into malicious character assassination...a) is he going to stay? b) do we want him to?...and maybe after Friday...c) who do we want instead?