Nicola Sturgeon gloating about nurses 4% pay rise paid by Westminster

[islaydarkblue]

The IFS analysis relies on the 'loan shark' model whereby the UK loan shark takes all of Scotland's money, buys what it wants for itself then gives Scotland what's left to pay its bills. By the end of the week, there isn't enough to feed the kids so the loan shark lends money back, at exorbitant interest rates. The victim can never escape the shark.

I'd genuinely like to see the UK adopt this model in Scotland, see how far it gets.

If you are not prepared to accept the details of a report published by the highly respected Institute of Fiscal Studies (IFS) the there is no point trying to have a sensible debate with you.

[Taintedice]

If you are not prepared to accept the details of a report published by the highly respected Institute of Fiscal Studies (IFS) the there is no point trying to have a sensible debate with you.

The IFS is a right-wing 'think tank' which publishes propaganda. If you are not able to argue your case without resorting to dumb reports, there is no point trying to have a sensible debate with you either.

Scotland's block grant is £32b and covers all of Scotland's public services.
Scotland's revenues as per GERS are around £65bn.

Please explain why you believe English taxpayers subsidise Scotland's NHS, using your own words and thoughts.

Is it even possible?

[BCram]

England has its own deficit which is not fully-funded by London and the SE, no money from English taxpayers comes anywhere near Scotland or Wales or NI. Scottish public services are funded wholely and exclusively from taxes collected in Scotland. These are GERS 'facts'. If the tories were running the Scottish NHS through the Scottish Office, nurses in Scotland would receive the same 1% paycut as their counterparts in England.

I am surprised by your statement that Scottish Public services are funded wholly and exclusively from taxes collected in Scotland.

[BCram]

I think Scotlands revenues are £65bn which you quote and is the figure for GERS 2019-2020. These same figures also show that the expenditure in Scotland is £85bn. The biggest single figure in the expenditures is for Social Protection which includes pensions and social security payments.
I genuinely don't understand the SNP interpretation of these figures. Taintedice, you are not alone in believing that the GERS figures are a deception designed to prove that the Barnet formula is a lie. What am I missing?

[Taintedice]

We're talking about public services here, pensions and benefits are not public services. The £81bn public expenditure includes £15bn the UK spends on its own priorities, it has nothing to do with Scotland especially not the Scottish government. The UK govt has borrowed £1trn in the past 10 years, English taxpayers don't subsidise anyone, they are themselves subsidised by the UK.

[Taintedice]

I genuinely don't understand the SNP interpretation of these figures. Taintedice, you are not alone in believing that the GERS figures are a deception designed to prove that the Barnet formula is a lie. What am I missing?

The Barnett formula is simpy an obligation for UK governments to spend in Wales, Scotland and NI, a % of what they spend in England. It doesn't deliver any more funding than Scotland is entitled to. The tories have spent around £50bn on Serco Track and Trace and PPE contracts in the past year, do you think the Scottish government were given £5bn via Barnett? Not even close.

[BCram]

We're talking about public services here, pensions and benefits are not public services. The £81bn public expenditure includes £15bn the UK spends on its own priorities, it has nothing to do with Scotland especially not the Scottish government. The UK govt has borrowed £1trn in the past 10 years, English taxpayers don't subsidise anyone, they are themselves subsidised by the UK.

You are talking about public services, but what about the pensions and benefits? Where does the money come from for these items? I don’t think that state benefits and state pensions are paid out of a fund, so they must come from Westminster. As you say our revenues raised in Scotland only pay for public services. Where is Scotland going to get the money to pay for state pensions, housing benefit, universal credit etc? You correctly point out the deficit being incurred by Westminster. Surely Scotland would have to borrow a pro rata amount if we did decide to vote for independence?
I don't think you have said anything that makes me think this is a good idea.

[BCram]

The Barnett formula is simpy an obligation for UK governments to spend in Wales, Scotland and NI, a % of what they spend in England. It doesn't deliver any more funding than Scotland is entitled to. The tories have spent around £50bn on Serco Track and Trace and PPE contracts in the past year, do you think the Scottish government were given £5bn via Barnett? Not even close.

I do think Scotland has got more money because of the Barnett formula and as you have explained it is a simple obligation to match the figures spent in England. I think Scotland has received the %age of the 50bn spent on Track & Trace and PPE contracts. If we have not , then we should be campaigning for our fair share rather than campaigning for independence.

[Taintedice]

You are talking about public services, but what about the pensions and benefits? Where does the money come from for these items? I don’t think that state benefits and state pensions are paid out of a fund, so they must come from Westminster. As you say our revenues raised in Scotland only pay for public services. Where is Scotland going to get the money to pay for state pensions, housing benefit, universal credit etc? You correctly point out the deficit being incurred by Westminster. Surely Scotland would have to borrow a pro rata amount if we did decide to vote for independence?
I don't think you have said anything that makes me think this is a good idea.

This thread is about the 4% pay rise awarded to Scottish nurses, apparently only because of the generosity of English taxpayers. All I've been saying is that is not the case, all public services are funded by the Scottish government via the block grant, the UK doesn't pay anything towards them. If you take GERS at face value, the total spend in Scotland for public services plus pensions plus benefits etc is equal to the revenues generated in Scotland. Why not ask the question where does Scotland get the money from to keep Trident going, or helping to expand the British English empire, or paying for HS2 etc, as that's where Scotland's 'deficit' comes from.

[Taintedice]

I do think Scotland has got more money because of the Barnett formula and as you have explained it is a simple obligation to match the figures spent in England. I think Scotland has received the %age of the 50bn spent on Track & Trace and PPE contracts. If we have not , then we should be campaigning for our fair share rather than campaigning for independence.

The SNP have been highlighting the disparity in covid spending for a year although they've been hesitant to attack the tories for their massive corruption as a war against the British state is unwinnable. Maybe Alex Salmond can do that if he's elected as he has nothing to lose really.