Bye bye 5-3-2?

[the_anticlough]

I suspect things have come to a head now regarding 5-3-2 / 3-5-2 and they'll be looking at each other saying 'why are we doing this again?

It was NA's last throw of the dice and came directly after the infamous players' meeting - it's since completed the usual cycle for experiments with this formation and is now ripe to be dumped

Ardley gave it a chance to succeed by going for a genuine 3-5-2. But fans don't seem to understand that means '3' at the back, because the first time a goal conceded is remotely connected to the wide midfielder they'll start screaming for full-backs to be picked. Then we'll go into games with totally the wrong balance between defence and attack, concede all initiative to the opposition and be completely toothless. For this formation, you need specialist wide players and specialist defenders too - the wide defenders will get a lot of the ball and will have to know how to use it as well as being comfortable defending in space out wide. You can't expect traditional centre-backs to do this just as you can't expect full-backs to play in a midfield 5. The best example I've ever seen was 'the nail' Adri Van Tiggelen, who was just considered a left-sided defender along with his partner on the other side Van Earle. These guys would snuff out anything which came down their side of the pitch as well as seeing a lot of the ball and really being able to use it. Asking our guys to do this is hopeless as we saw with Turner at Yeovil and Rawlo today. They're fine in centre-back pairing.

I think we can expect the penny to drop now and this desperate Ardley move (I think it was the players) duly dumped and we'll be back to a more suitable back four for the run-in.

[Notts78]

I suspect things have come to a head now regarding 5-3-2 / 3-5-2 and they'll be looking at each other saying 'why are we doing this again?

It was NA's last throw of the dice and came directly after the infamous players' meeting - it's since completed the usual cycle for experiments with this formation and is now ripe to be dumped

Ardley gave it a chance to succeed by going for a genuine 3-5-2. But fans don't seem to understand that means '3' at the back, because the first time a goal conceded is remotely connected to the wide midfielder they'll start screaming for full-backs to be picked. Then we'll go into games with totally the wrong balance between defence and attack, concede all initiative to the opposition and be completely toothless. For this formation, you need specialist wide players and specialist defenders too - the wide defenders will get a lot of the ball and will have to know how to use it as well as being comfortable defending in space out wide. You can't expect traditional centre-backs to do this just as you can't expect full-backs to play in a midfield 5. The best example I've ever seen was 'the nail' Adri Van Tiggelen, who was just considered a left-sided defender along with his partner on the other side Van Earle. These guys would snuff out anything which came down their side of the pitch as well as seeing a lot of the ball and really being able to use it. Asking our guys to do this is hopeless as we saw with Turner at Yeovil and Rawlo today. They're fine in centre-back pairing.

I think we can expect the penny to drop now and this desperate Ardley move (I think it was the players) duly dumped and we'll be back to a more suitable back four for the run-in.

4-4-2 wouldn’t suit us any better at the moment though IMO. It wouldn’t fix the confidence problems. The back 4 would be fine but then what? Immobile centre midfielders, all the so called flair players are at rock bottom. No centre forwards in any sort of form.
Tactics are far from the problem for me. Many of the players are done. They need a break and for many a change of club. Either way they need a restart.
What should have happened a month ago is that IB should have bought in a player or 2. The fact he has seemingly alienated certain players and sent some back says everything to me that IB doesn’t believe we are very good.
The squad lacks so many pieces of the jigsaw. Height, physicality, pace, movement and what has been apparent to me is the total lack of leadership on the pitch.
So IMO playing 3-5-2, 3-4-3, 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 won’t matter. The players as stated are done.

[jackal2]

The key problem seems to be that we haven't got two midfielders well-suited to play as a two-man midfield, so we have to play a three man midfield in order to compete (and even then we struggle!).

I suspect that Burchnall's preference would actually be a 4-3-3, but that means playing with only one central striker, and with Wootton out of form, only young Knowles and Knight as alternatives, and a lack of goals in general, he probably feels we need two up front to give ourselves a chance.

So, if you've concluded that with the personnel available you need a three man midfield and two strikers, 5-3-2 and 3-5-2 become almost self-selecting formations until we can address the weaknesses in midfield and up front.

[Kelton]

4-4-2 wouldn’t suit us any better at the moment though IMO. It wouldn’t fix the confidence problems. The back 4 would be fine but then what? Immobile centre midfielders, all the so called flair players are at rock bottom. No centre forwards in any sort of form.
Tactics are far from the problem for me. Many of the players are done. They need a break and for many a change of club. Either way they need a restart.
What should have happened a month ago is that IB should have bought in a player or 2. The fact he has seemingly alienated certain players and sent some back says everything to me that IB doesn’t believe we are very good.
The squad lacks so many pieces of the jigsaw. Height, physicality, pace, movement and what has been apparent to me is the total lack of leadership on the pitch.
So IMO playing 3-5-2, 3-4-3, 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 won’t matter. The players as stated are done.

IB hasnt alienated anyone. Its the players who are at fault. Ruben and Sam didnt show the right attitude on and off the field. Why does this have to be twisted into anything different.

[the_anticlough]

The key problem seems to be that we haven't got two midfielders well-suited to play as a two-man midfield, so we have to play a three man midfield in order to compete (and even then we struggle!).

I suspect that Burchnall's preference would actually be a 4-3-3, but that means playing with only one central striker, and with Wootton out of form, only young Knowles and Knight as alternatives, and a lack of goals in general, he probably feels we need two up front to give ourselves a chance.

So, if you've concluded that with the personnel available you need a three man midfield and two strikers, 5-3-2 and 3-5-2 become almost self-selecting formations until we can address the weaknesses in midfield and up front.

I can't agree with any of that. We play most games with a midfield 2, that by itself isn't what's beating us.

Even if you were obliged to have a midfield 3 and 2 up front, what's stopping you playing a midfield diamond or just adding a winger (formations don't have to be symmetrical!). Anyway, my prediction is that we have seen the last of 5-3-2. The defenders are just not suited to it, they're less assured, are more confused and take less responsibility that they do in a four. And it's turned into the waste of a man anyway.

[MAD_MAGPIE]

4-4-2 wouldn’t suit us any better at the moment though IMO. It wouldn’t fix the confidence problems. The back 4 would be fine but then what? Immobile centre midfielders, all the so called flair players are at rock bottom. No centre forwards in any sort of form.
Tactics are far from the problem for me. Many of the players are done. They need a break and for many a change of club. Either way they need a restart.
What should have happened a month ago is that IB should have bought in a player or 2. The fact he has seemingly alienated certain players and sent some back says everything to me that IB doesn’t believe we are very good.
The squad lacks so many pieces of the jigsaw. Height, physicality, pace, movement and what has been apparent to me is the total lack of leadership on the pitch.
So IMO playing 3-5-2, 3-4-3, 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 won’t matter. The players as stated are done.

I agree about the players being done. It doesn't go as technical as formations for me as changing formations has not fixed it. Likewise for me it doesn't matter who the manager is either as two haven't been able to fix it.

The reason I say that is because it does not look like we have the legs, energy, desire or intensity to cope with the persistent two games a week we've had in the past two months. Apart from when we played Torquay in a normal week we have not really looked convincing or put in a complete team performance since we played with ten men against Dagenham.

It can't be just coincidence that our form has been the poorest it's ever been at this level under two managers during the period we have had two games a week for two months. The only exception being a normal week leading up to the Torquay.

We can only hope that as the number of games diminish that it get's to a point where it ignites something in the team to give it one last push, or we will end up carrying on as we are and stagger to about 60 points and finish roughly where we are now.

[Notts78]

I can't agree with any of that. We play most games with a midfield 2, that by itself isn't what's beating us.

Even if you were obliged to have a midfield 3 and 2 up front, what's stopping you playing a midfield diamond or just adding a winger (formations don't have to be symmetrical!). Anyway, my prediction is that we have seen the last of 5-3-2. The defenders are just not suited to it, they're less assured, are more confused and take less responsibility that they do in a four. And it's turned into the waste of a man anyway.

I’d be interested to know what your starting 11 would be on current form/performance levels?

[the_anticlough]

Its the players who are at fault. Ruben and Sam didnt show the right attitude on and off the field.

Seriously, where do you get this crap from?
Are you dressed in a long raincoat watching them from behind trees? Or are rivals for their positions skilfully leaking gossip to selected NCM posters?
And if it's anything IB insinuated, then that should stay in-house, especially as that kind of thing is HIS responsibility.

I think the last people you can blame for a 10-game disaster are the players who Burchnall excluded.

[the_anticlough]

I’d be interested to know what your starting 11 would be on current form/performance levels?

.....................Raddy
Benji ......Pedro..... Killer.... Rayo
...... Goodwin.... Rash
Chiedozie McCulloch Christie Mair

[Carlton_Pie]

The key problem seems to be that we haven't got two midfielders well-suited to play as a two-man midfield, so we have to play a three man midfield in order to compete (and even then we struggle!).

I suspect that Burchnall's preference would actually be a 4-3-3, but that means playing with only one central striker, and with Wootton out of form, only young Knowles and Knight as alternatives, and a lack of goals in general, he probably feels we need two up front to give ourselves a chance.

So, if you've concluded that with the personnel available you need a three man midfield and two strikers, 5-3-2 and 3-5-2 become almost self-selecting formations until we can address the weaknesses in midfield and up front.

Nailed it it.

We can't play 4-4-2 as we don't have 1 CM with the legs to get around the pitch and it's been the same since the start of our last season of League football.