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Thread: FAO Steve Finan

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    23,520
    Are you trying to follow Debenhams or Top Shop Steve?,this is what your right wing editor allows to be fed to the bastion of freedom,FACT.

    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/opin...turgeons-fate/

    Jenny was right though the voters did decide.

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...arly-indyref2/
    Last edited by GUNBOAT; 16-05-2021 at 12:51 AM.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    5,915
    Can i say this thread isn't fair on a proud great arab. Yeah he works for a cvnt of a paper. They have done a few good articles on our youngsters lately BUT the rest is shocking. W4ankfest for months on the 23million of debt not local companies who died. Not Steve's fault. And i hope no one on here thinks thats an issue. Great arab who works at a place. As for the wee burnie of scotland and fat axel i dont ever read the courier for that. I wrote to the courier about bias in foot ball nigh on less than a month a go. No idea if printed as i and most arabs of 40-50k strong now see the paper and bog roll. But i dont blame any employee like Steve for that.

    sryb and ftd (and DFCT)

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    6,934
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Finan View Post
    Thanks for kind words about the Jim McLean book, James. I will have another United book published next year, though I’ll keep the details to myself for now.
    I’m only peripherally involved in newspaper journalism these days, but I know the Twa Teams boys very well. I grew up with Bear from the age of 16, which is well over 40 years ago. I must be honest here, I think you are being harsh on him for missing out a word in that sentence. He knows well that United have, in the past, been in two cup finals in a season.
    Indeed, I’d pay Bear the highest compliment I’d give to any man: he kens his fitba. If you are ever looking for a team to enter a football quiz, you’d do well to recruit Bear. He’s a good lad, a Scottish Junior international in his day, stands his hand at the bar, and I guarantee you’d enjoy his company no matter what team you support.
    Football journalism has changed. In the old days, no one knew what team Arthur Montford, or Hugh McIlvanney supported. I wouldn’t have dared ask McIlvanney! Nowadays, the chatty, podcasting, personality-driven football reportage requires people to say who their team is. It is a more human way of talking about football. But it opens everyone who writes, Tweets, or podcasts to accusations of bias.
    You can hold what they say against them, that is your prerogative. You can pay your money or give your time to read or listen, or not, and agree or disagree, or not. If you don’t like it, don’t access it. But we’d have to admit we all suffer from confirmation bias. You, me, everybody.
    So, for argument’s sake, let’s turn the spotlight around. How are you judged?
    I come here because there are several posters who give honest, reasoned, original assessments and opinions of United matters. I’d go as far as to say I respect the football nous that is displayed. I’ll not pick out names, but several of the people here are worth listening to.
    The book I talked about in first paragraph would benefit from supporter input — in the same manner as Jim McLean Dundee United Legend. So I intend to pm some guys on here to directly ask for their opinion. No one has to take part, of course, they can tell me to sling my hook. It will be their choice, I certainly won’t take offence.
    In deciding who to send a pm to, I can only judge people on what they write on here. It is the only thing I have to go on, as I don’t know everyone personally.
    It is the same way the Twa Teams lads are judged by listeners.
    Steve thank you for a very detailed and informative reply. I enjoy listening to podcasts in the car to and from work and Twa Teams is one I listen to amongst others (including the Courier Talking Football). I’m pretty sure Bear is a sound enough guy who one could sit and have a pint with nae bother but that latest podcast I just felt was starting to take things too far. Maybe I’m missing the point of the series, but when speaking about Dundee it is the constant references to ‘we’ and ‘us’ without any attempt to hide it whatsoever that starts to border on the hilarious. It’s not exactly ‘objective’ but then maybe it’s not meant to be like that and I’m missing the point, in which case that’s my bad.

    Through the last 18 month or so we’ve had the constant references to Dundee United’s financial ‘struggles’ without any balancing context that you could apply that to any Club in Scotland right now but United seem to get singled out as some sort of unique case, yet perversely you then get ‘special edition podcasts’ about an Argentinian forward who barely played for six months, was gone as quick as he came and fundamentally contributed toward a debt of £23,000,000 that almost killed the Club but almost certainly killed several local businesses who were deprived of what was their right and their dues. I’m pretty sure those affected weren’t listening to the ‘Celebration Special’. I’d have absolutely no quibble about podcasts marking Dundee winning the League or the League Cup for instance but that era in the history of Dundee and how the actions of those in charge severely affected local businesses should be a cause for denouncement not celebration.

    As another example, and moving away from the Twa Teams podcast itself, but on the night of the ‘Doon Derby’ why was it necessary to have a DC’s camera crew and reporter sitting outside Dens waiting to film United supporters on their view of their Club getting relegated immediately right after full time? I don’t remember anything of the like after Dundee got relegated against Hamilton two years ago for instance. Actions such as that are inflammatory at best and it’s little wonder that it contributes to Arab’s perceptions as to DC Thomson’s allegiances. Even more recently, after we thrashed Aberdeen a couple of weeks ago in undoubtedly our best performance of the season, the Courier back page had headlines about St Johnstone and Dundee. No mention of United. Not one.

    I get that journalism is not easy. Research is time consuming and no doubt exhausting. Constantly worrying about what is legitimate to print or not I have no doubt is stressful. And trying to achieve levels of objectivity I’m sure is difficult. What a lot of Arabs feel though is that some on the face of it have given up even trying and are peddling a narrative where Dundee can do no wrong and United can do no right. Anyways, I’ve had my rant. Keep up your excellent individual work, I also got your book on Scotland which was also right up there with the Jim one and despite what I may have just said there are still clearly some continuing to fly the journalistic flag down DC’s way.
    Last edited by JamesMcClean; 16-05-2021 at 07:24 AM.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,875
    There will be Dundee fans that will argue blind that the Courier is anti-Dundee, Rangers fans will tell you the Daily Ranger is a Celtic paper, Celtic fans vice versa etc...

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    496
    Quote Originally Posted by JUSTaway View Post
    There will be Dundee fans that will argue blind that the Courier is anti-Dundee, Rangers fans will tell you the Daily Ranger is a Celtic paper, Celtic fans vice versa etc...
    True but they are wrong!!

  6. #16
    The perception of newspapers is a subject I am very interested in. This is a good, honest discussion.
    I won’t, indeed can’t, defend everything written in a newspaper. The editor definitely wouldn’t want me to. Any editor will choose columnists to represent different points of view. But the thoughts and opinions of one columnist can no more be said to be the view of the entire newspaper than can the thoughts and views of one poster be taken as the collective view of Dundee United Mad.
    When a team is doing well, there will be column inches in newspapers praising them, vice-versa when doing bad.
    For every camera capturing sad emotions, there will be a dozen capturing happy emotions. I managed to produce a book (Arabs Away — that could easily have been double the size) of photos of United supporters celebrating. Some of you are pictured in that book.
    The newspapers in this city have a continual line of communication with both city clubs. The more savvy managers use this to their advantage and will provide and even suggest photo opportunities and stories. They know that providing good copy and good photos gets their team reported upon in a positive light. Good publicity engenders interest in the club, and gets supporters through the turnstiles. Jim McLean was very good at this, having discussed it with, and learned from, Jock Stein. In turn, Stein learned it from Shankly and Busby.
    The media landscape has changed, of course, with clubs now churning out their own publicity material.
    The difference from the official club line is that journalists know they have to be impartial. So if they look back over their past fortnight’s output and reckon they have written a dozen positive stories about a club, they will attempt to balance it by talking very plainly, indeed critically, when there is a negative story. And sometimes there are negative stories, bad performances. They have to convince their editor, their readers, and sometimes themselves, that when called upon they can give an impartial view. They are only human.
    Again, Jim (I keep giving Jim McLean as an example because he was so good at this) would tear strips off reporters who he thought had done him or his club a disservice — and would even ban them from Tannadice for a while. But he did this because he deeply understood the nature of his job and its relationship to the reporters’ job. It was all an attempt to steer the coverage of his club. And Dundee United benefited greatly from his media skills. Football club management isn't only what happens on the pitch.
    Very few reporters have a one-way, one-team agenda. I have never met such a reporter. And it would be ridiculous in a newspaper that exists in a two-team town. They'd be out of a job inside a week. Different in a city like Aberdeen with one club (although it will be interesting to see how the rise of Cove changes this).
    If you put yourself in the shoes of a reporter, who has a job to do, who is sent to cover a Dundee FC game . . . and Dundee play very well and win handsomely, what do you write? I know that opens itself up for jokes but to be serious for a minute, if you’re being professional, what do you write?
    Our local papers do a fantastic job covering both clubs, and St Johnstone, Forfar, Brechin, Montrose, Raith Rovers, Dunfermline, Cowdenbeath (remember, The Courier is the Angus, Fife, and Perthshire newspaper, as well as the Dundee paper.) Supporting United would be a diluted, lesser experience without the continual flow of interviews, analysis, and commentary. You don’t have to like every word, or agree with every sentiment — just as you don’t like every word/sentiment uttered on here, or on any other media platform that talks about United.

  7. #17
    Sorry, one other thing I should say as it has been touched on earlier in this thread. I greatly enjoy The Dode Fox podcast. Imperative listen for United supporters. But I never miss an episode of Twa Teams One Street either. Because I want to know what a St Mirren supporter, a QoS supporter and a Dundee supporter think of United’s performance, or the news surrounding United. It is always interesting to know what the impartial (and they ARE impartial) view is.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    5,915
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Finan View Post
    Sorry, one other thing I should say as it has been touched on earlier in this thread. I greatly enjoy The Dode Fox podcast. Imperative listen for United supporters. But I never miss an episode of Twa Teams One Street either. Because I want to know what a St Mirren supporter, a QoS supporter and a Dundee supporter think of United’s performance, or the news surrounding United. It is always interesting to know what the impartial (and they ARE impartial) view is.
    Ive never listened to it but i certainly will Steve as ive clearly had shed shades on just ignoring it. I will report back my review

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    4,875
    Print/digital formats will Play a role in this. As an arab outwith tayside, i dont have sight of hard čopies, i literally choose to access dundee united content, im in a utd News bubble if i choose.

    A few times Ive choosen to Listen to the opposition commentary this Season on our games, Enjoy Getting a different perspective on our team.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    23,520
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Finan View Post
    The perception of newspapers is a subject I am very interested in. This is a good, honest discussion.
    I won’t, indeed can’t, defend everything written in a newspaper. The editor definitely wouldn’t want me to. Any editor will choose columnists to represent different points of view. But the thoughts and opinions of one columnist can no more be said to be the view of the entire newspaper than can the thoughts and views of one poster be taken as the collective view of Dundee United Mad.
    When a team is doing well, there will be column inches in newspapers praising them, vice-versa when doing bad.
    For every camera capturing sad emotions, there will be a dozen capturing happy emotions. I managed to produce a book (Arabs Away — that could easily have been double the size) of photos of United supporters celebrating. Some of you are pictured in that book.
    The newspapers in this city have a continual line of communication with both city clubs. The more savvy managers use this to their advantage and will provide and even suggest photo opportunities and stories. They know that providing good copy and good photos gets their team reported upon in a positive light. Good publicity engenders interest in the club, and gets supporters through the turnstiles. Jim McLean was very good at this, having discussed it with, and learned from, Jock Stein. In turn, Stein learned it from Shankly and Busby.
    The media landscape has changed, of course, with clubs now churning out their own publicity material.
    The difference from the official club line is that journalists know they have to be impartial. So if they look back over their past fortnight’s output and reckon they have written a dozen positive stories about a club, they will attempt to balance it by talking very plainly, indeed critically, when there is a negative story. And sometimes there are negative stories, bad performances. They have to convince their editor, their readers, and sometimes themselves, that when called upon they can give an impartial view. They are only human.
    Again, Jim (I keep giving Jim McLean as an example because he was so good at this) would tear strips off reporters who he thought had done him or his club a disservice — and would even ban them from Tannadice for a while. But he did this because he deeply understood the nature of his job and its relationship to the reporters’ job. It was all an attempt to steer the coverage of his club. And Dundee United benefited greatly from his media skills. Football club management isn't only what happens on the pitch.
    Very few reporters have a one-way, one-team agenda. I have never met such a reporter. And it would be ridiculous in a newspaper that exists in a two-team town. They'd be out of a job inside a week. Different in a city like Aberdeen with one club (although it will be interesting to see how the rise of Cove changes this).
    If you put yourself in the shoes of a reporter, who has a job to do, who is sent to cover a Dundee FC game . . . and Dundee play very well and win handsomely, what do you write? I know that opens itself up for jokes but to be serious for a minute, if you’re being professional, what do you write?
    Our local papers do a fantastic job covering both clubs, and St Johnstone, Forfar, Brechin, Montrose, Raith Rovers, Dunfermline, Cowdenbeath (remember, The Courier is the Angus, Fife, and Perthshire newspaper, as well as the Dundee paper.) Supporting United would be a diluted, lesser experience without the continual flow of interviews, analysis, and commentary. You don’t have to like every word, or agree with every sentiment — just as you don’t like every word/sentiment uttered on here, or on any other media platform that talks about United.
    I used to work for Hospital radio doing the co commentary Steve i agree 100% with your views on impartiality.I was once sent to Dens to cover a game between Dundee and Arbroath in the League Cup(i think).
    The Dees ran out 5-0 winners and my man of the match was the Arbroath centre half,there you go completely impartial.

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