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Thread: Got to be said (Putting the world to rights version)

  1. #21
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    yes "it has to stop", but I'm afraid I don't believe it ever will. There will always be a hard core that will adhere to a supremacist agenda. They may switch the intensity of their feelings between different minorities, including latterly Eastern European or Middle Eastern refugees, who will have taken the pressure of the black and south asian immigrant groups somewhat, but I fear "differencism" is a permanent feature of human nature. "He/she doesnt (insert verb of your choice) the same as me, so I will hate/persecute/make fun of him/her because of it" is in my view a natural (if repellent) part of the human make up. Those of us that are sentient will try to avoid such attitudes, but a vast number of our species are not sentient and have historically and presently chosen this "differentist" route to making themselves feel better about their own inadequacies.

    Education is but part of the answer (and the educators in this little snippet of conversation have not come out as beacons of their profession) - trying to change basic human nature is a bigger problem that I have no clue how to overcome. Everyone has different qualities, and therefore jealousies manifest themselves in one form of -ism or another. Take that away and you have a race of perfect androids with no character etc....... and the race stagnates, It is so deeply embedded, and indeed essential for progression of the species that it is perhaps a necessary evil.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Not sure I suggested there being less racism now than in the ‘60’s did I? It was certainly more overt back then and signs such as ‘No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs’ were relatively commonplace.
    Fortunately such written sentiments have been made illegal, but it seems, for all its undoubted benefits, the internet has provided an opportunity for cowardly and invariably anonymous racist attacks to reappear as we saw on Sunday night and see all too regularly where black sportsmen and women are concerned.
    I’m genuinely unsure of your phrase ‘racial tolerance’. What does it mean? As far as I’m concerned I barely notice if someone of a different race is sitting next to me at a match, in a pub/restaurant, at a concert/in the theatre/cinema...wherever. Likewise if a black or Asian family moved in next door to me the idea that I should be ‘tolerant’ of them...or them of me...would never actually occur to me. It seems quite patronising to suggest that ‘tolerance’ of another race is necessary. All that matters to me is how people behave.
    rA, 'tolerant' is being happy to be served by an Asian shopkeeper but sitting well away from him in the doctors surgery. That, however, is a level more tolerant than being happy to have black folk living on your street but forming an action group to stop a traveller site being located near your village. The traveller issue is, I'm afraid, where most righteous non-racists trip up, intolerance has many colours

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    rA, 'tolerant' is being happy to be served by an Asian shopkeeper but sitting well away from him in the doctors surgery. That, however, is a level more tolerant than being happy to have black folk living on your street but forming an action group to stop a traveller site being located near your village. The traveller issue is, I'm afraid, where most righteous non-racists trip up, intolerance has many colours
    The traveller issue is a complex one, and I'm not sure I'd agree its where most righteous non racists trip up, there are always those who expand lengthily on being fair and tolerant and then have a different view when it directly affects their own lives or they perceive it does.

    Going back to the traveller issue, they certainly aren't dealt a good hand by the authority's that are supposed to provide for them, but whilst many are folk who are decent and law abiding and just follow an alternative/itinerant lifestyle. There are also some as with any proportion of the population, who are involved in criminal activities, disregard the law regarding planning consent etc. and leave the places where they have stayed in a disgusting mess. As always its the "bad apples" that tar the rest of their ilk with a bad name.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    rA, 'tolerant' is being happy to be served by an Asian shopkeeper but sitting well away from him in the doctors surgery. That, however, is a level more tolerant than being happy to have black folk living on your street but forming an action group to stop a traveller site being located near your village. The traveller issue is, I'm afraid, where most righteous non-racists trip up, intolerance has many colours
    I’m honestly shocked at that answer, AF, and without in any way ‘virtue signalling’ it had, certainty pre Covid, never ever occurred to me to sit ‘well away’ from anyone anywhere because of their colour or ethnicity. As I say, I’m surprised and shocked at your answer...can only assume you’re somehow confusing ‘tolerant’ with ‘hypocritical’.

    Personally I have no problem whatsoever with having ‘black folk’, Asian folk or Chinese people living adjacent to me...as I have said before, the only thing that matters to me is how people behave.

    With that in mind I may actually avoid sitting next to someone who smells, someone who is obviously drunk or someone who is grossly overweight because they may tend to ‘invade my space’.

    Extending that to ‘travellers’. I agree partly with Swale that they often get a raw deal, but I’ll qualify that further by saying that it is all too often a raw deal that they bring on themselves as a result of poor and irresponsible behaviour. Anecdotally I never had a problem with travellers until I met their alleged ‘leader’ some years ago in a professional capacity. He proved to be one of the most bigoted and racist individuals I’ve ever come across and was determined to abdicate all responsibility for the state sites are frequently left in when travellers move on. He was, imo, the travellers own worst enemy.

  5. #25
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    Agreed rA, travellers are often their own worst enemy - as a primary school governor, way back when, we had various children from a local traveller encampment temporarily billeted on us. Never have I met a more bigotted, racist group of parents who were thoroughly obnoxious and anti social. The school made stringent efforts to find space for the kids, who rarely bothered to turn up, and when they did often went walkabout randomly during the day.

    But the incident that has informed my lifetime attitude to travellers occurred in my childhood - was about 15 I suppose. A group came and set up home adjacent to one our neighbours. A raft of break ins and thefts shortly followed, and indeed ended when they were moved on. But the worst thing was that my neighbour had a donkey who was, admittedly a trifle noisy - but this is the countryside. There was no need whatsoever for one of the travellers to chainsaw its head off.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    I’m honestly shocked at that answer, AF, and without in any way ‘virtue signalling’ it had, certainty pre Covid, never ever occurred to me to sit ‘well away’ from anyone anywhere because of their colour or ethnicity. As I say, I’m surprised and shocked at your answer...can only assume you’re somehow confusing ‘tolerant’ with ‘hypocritical’.

    Personally I have no problem whatsoever with having ‘black folk’, Asian folk or Chinese people living adjacent to me...as I have said before, the only thing that matters to me is how people behave.

    With that in mind I may actually avoid sitting next to someone who smells, someone who is obviously drunk or someone who is grossly overweight because they may tend to ‘invade my space’.

    Extending that to ‘travellers’. I agree partly with Swale that they often get a raw deal, but I’ll qualify that further by saying that it is all too often a raw deal that they bring on themselves as a result of poor and irresponsible behaviour. Anecdotally I never had a problem with travellers until I met their alleged ‘leader’ some years ago in a professional capacity. He proved to be one of the most bigoted and racist individuals I’ve ever come across and was determined to abdicate all responsibility for the state sites are frequently left in when travellers move on. He was, imo, the travellers own worst enemy.
    'Tolerant' (my definition) AND hypocritical at the same time rA

    I'm assuming your brush with the traveller tainted your view on the traveller community as a whole, if it didn't you are a man alone.

    And taking that a step further, if intolerance of travellers as a community exists because of what, when all said and done, are just a different set of rules to your community, and lets include Jehova's witnesses (quite regularly belittled here) for the same reason, why are folk surprised/disgusted at intolerance of other groups, by other groups?

    Edit GPs post 21 sort of summaries things quite well
    Last edited by Andy_Faber; 14-07-2021 at 08:37 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    'Tolerant' (my definition) AND hypocritical at the same time rA

    I'm assuming your brush with the traveller tainted your view on the traveller community as a whole, if it didn't you are a man alone.

    And taking that a step further, if intolerance of travellers as a community exists because of what, when all said and done, are just a different set of rules to your community, and lets include Jehova's witnesses (quite regularly belittled here) for the same reason, why are folk surprised/disgusted at intolerance of other groups, by other groups?

    Edit GPs post 21 sort of summaries things quite well
    My ‘brush with the traveller’ tainted my view of that individual alone. My repeated experience of travellers leaving a mess that the ‘resident community’ then has to foot the bill to clear up doesn’t endear me to them, but neither does it make me write off a whole community and I recognise that they are often bullied and victimised by some within the ‘mainstream’ community.

    Not sure what Jehova’s Witnesses have to do with it. Personally I disagree with what I understand of their beliefs, but their behaviour is seldom, if ever, offensive.

    I’m not sure what your point actually is, but your original definition of being ‘racially tolerant’ is, imo, untypically bizarre and a little disturbing.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    'Tolerant' (my definition) AND hypocritical at the same time rA

    I'm assuming your brush with the traveller tainted your view on the traveller community as a whole, if it didn't you are a man alone.

    And taking that a step further, if intolerance of travellers as a community exists because of what, when all said and done, are just a different set of rules to your community, and lets include Jehova's witnesses (quite regularly belittled here) for the same reason, why are folk surprised/disgusted at intolerance of other groups, by other groups?

    Edit GPs post 21 sort of summaries things quite well
    Are people surprised? I'd say that things have moved on considerably in society on many fronts over the past half century, the vast majority of people are not racist or intolerant in the main, those that are know to keep quiet and then there are those who feel their "human rights" are being constrained, one is never going to win everybody over nfortunately.

    Humans tend to be comfortable within like minded groups and adopt a at best suspicious and at worst hostile attitude to people in other groups, this tribal behaviour is common to most humans and nationalities.

    Now for some its easy to recognise that just because a certain person or groups of people acts in a certain way, thats not necessarily stereotypical of how all people who belong to that group act. But for those who are looking for a reason to be intolerant or hate someone different, then of course its easy to give the actions of a few as a reason for hating the many.

    I'm not aligned with many Tory policies, but know many good individuals who members of the party, I also know some right devious ****s who are Labour supporters.

    As for the JW, I was put on the do not call list because I used to keep them and hour or more in discussion when they called on me! However I know a JW family who fine, but then we don't discuss religion!

  9. #29
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    Sep 2011
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    The racist slurs following the football. I think we are no nearer tracking down their origin than we were when they occurred.

    It APPEARS that just over half of them originated in UAE, Saudi, Hong Kong and various other places that aren't in England and that seems to have satisfied some that it's not as bad as we thought for the English.

    It also means that nearly half of them DID originate in England...........

    Thinking further, isn't it possible that a good deal of the "foreign" posts actually onle seem to originate from abroad due to VPN use?

    This whole sh*tshow needs investigating and the perps locking up.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadAmster View Post
    The racist slurs following the football. I think we are no nearer tracking down their origin than we were when they occurred.

    It APPEARS that just over half of them originated in UAE, Saudi, Hong Kong and various other places that aren't in England and that seems to have satisfied some that it's not as bad as we thought for the English.

    It also means that nearly half of them DID originate in England...........

    Thinking further, isn't it possible that a good deal of the "foreign" posts actually onle seem to originate from abroad due to VPN use?

    This whole sh*tshow needs investigating and the perps locking up.
    Expat UK workers then, presumably.

    Where do yo find this information from - Ive just googled it several ways round and can find nothing. Dutch freedom of information act must be more responsive

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