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Thread: Got to be said (Putting the world to rights version)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    Expat UK workers then, presumably.

    Where do yo find this information from - Ive just googled it several ways round and can find nothing. Dutch freedom of information act must be more responsive
    Not sure where MA saw this but I saw it, unqualified (ie without any presumption as your last post does) as part of a ****awful piece on newsnight where the presenter was trying to get out so many pieces of info he couldn’t keep up with the autocue. So I’m not surprised it’s been missed There was also mention of it (with qualifications) on LBC the day after

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    Not sure where MA saw this but I saw it, unqualified (ie without any presumption as your last post does) as part of a ****awful piece on newsnight where the presenter was trying to get out so many pieces of info he couldn’t keep up with the autocue. So I’m not surprised it’s been missed There was also mention of it (with qualifications) on LBC the day after
    https://worldsoccertalk.com/2021/07/...ootball-stars/

    Yep, I think every lead should followed. The real trolls and the fake ones causing trouble.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    My ‘brush with the traveller’ tainted my view of that individual alone. My repeated experience of travellers leaving a mess that the ‘resident community’ then has to foot the bill to clear up doesn’t endear me to them, but neither does it make me write off a whole community and I recognise that they are often bullied and victimised by some within the ‘mainstream’ community.

    Not sure what Jehova’s Witnesses have to do with it. Personally I disagree with what I understand of their beliefs, but their behaviour is seldom, if ever, offensive.

    I’m not sure what your point actually is, but your original definition of being ‘racially tolerant’ is, imo, untypically bizarre and a little disturbing.
    I stand by what I said and can't see it as bizarre when one of the paragraphs defining the word on wikipedia pretty much nails what I mean (this one's in relation to religion and on this one I can genuinely say 'I've been there' as a subject of the 'toleration') 'Religious toleration may signify "no more than forbearance and the permission given by the adherents of a dominant religion for other religions to exist, even though the latter are looked on with disapproval as inferior, mistaken, or harmful". I'm sure you can substitute religion for race, creed, colour, ***uality, gender etc

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    I stand by what I said and can't see it as bizarre when one of the paragraphs defining the word on wikipedia pretty much nails what I mean (this one's in relation to religion and on this one I can genuinely say 'I've been there' as a subject of the 'toleration') 'Religious toleration may signify "no more than forbearance and the permission given by the adherents of a dominant religion for other religions to exist, even though the latter are looked on with disapproval as inferior, mistaken, or harmful". I'm sure you can substitute religion for race, creed, colour, ***uality, gender etc
    Why are you sure you can ‘substitute religion for race’ etc? Religion involves adherence to a belief system whereas race/skin colour is just an ‘accident of birth’.
    I’m happy to ‘tolerate’ all religions but I actually wouldn’t want to spend time with any religious zealot be they Muslim, Catholic or whatever. That however has nothing whatsoever to do with ‘racial tolerance’ and your example is, imo, horribly flawed.
    I’m sure, as you suggest, those of various religious persuasions look on others as ‘inferior, mistaken or harmful’, but that isn’t the case with ‘race’...there is no inferior or superior race and to suggest otherwise is, by definition, racist.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    Expat UK workers then, presumably.

    Where do yo find this information from - Ive just googled it several ways round and can find nothing. Dutch freedom of information act must be more responsive
    Actually as part of an interview with Southgate a day, maybe 2, after the game

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Why are you sure you can ‘substitute religion for race’ etc? Religion involves adherence to a belief system whereas race/skin colour is just an ‘accident of birth’.
    I’m happy to ‘tolerate’ all religions but I actually wouldn’t want to spend time with any religious zealot be they Muslim, Catholic or whatever. That however has nothing whatsoever to do with ‘racial tolerance’ and your example is, imo, horribly flawed.
    I’m sure, as you suggest, those of various religious persuasions look on others as ‘inferior, mistaken or harmful’, but that isn’t the case with ‘race’...there is no inferior or superior race and to suggest otherwise is, by definition, racist.
    You’re missing my point so I’ll withdraw from the discussion

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    You’re missing my point so I’ll withdraw from the discussioin
    I am missing your point and, for what it’s worth, I don’t believe that you’re racist, but I do think you tried to make your point (regarding the Asian shopkeeper) very badly and I do think it’s unwise and unhelpful to confuse racial and religious intolerance.
    Pity that you feel the need to withdraw from the discussion, always better to see it through sensibly imo, but that’s your choice.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    I am missing your point and, for what it’s worth, I don’t believe that you’re racist, but I do think you tried to make your point (regarding the Asian shopkeeper) very badly and I do think it’s unwise and unhelpful to confuse racial and religious intolerance.
    Pity that you feel the need to withdraw from the discussion, always better to see it through sensibly imo, but that’s your choice.
    OK one last comment - I don't confuse racial and religious intolerance and I'm afraid you do. For good or ill, religious belief (of a particular religion) is often as embedded in, and as visible to others as, race or colour. That's particularly embedded in the jewish faith where one doesn't 'become' a Jew, one IS a Jew (by birth from a Jewish mother). Asking 99.999% of, lets say, Sikhs to change or deny their religion would not only be refuted but considered a deep insult.

    I really don't want this to slide into TTR message ping pong territory so I'll take a break

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    OK one last comment - I don't confuse racial and religious intolerance and I'm afraid you do. For good or ill, religious belief (of a particular religion) is often as embedded in, and as visible to others as, race or colour. That's particularly embedded in the jewish faith where one doesn't 'become' a Jew, one IS a Jew (by birth from a Jewish mother). Asking 99.999% of, lets say, Sikhs to change or deny their religion would not only be refuted but considered a deep insult.

    I really don't want this to slide into TTR message ping pong territory so I'll take a break
    No ‘ping pong’ from me. I thought it was an intelligent debate. A little unfair to introduce Jews and Sikhs as they are the two ‘ethnoreligious groups’ which obviously clouds the issue.
    In all other circumstances racial and religious tolerance are very different.
    As I said...up to you if you want to continue. I think it’s a perfectly amicable discussion.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    No ‘ping pong’ from me. I thought it was an intelligent debate. A little unfair to introduce Jews and Sikhs as they are the two ‘ethnoreligious groups’ which obviously clouds the issue.
    In all other circumstances racial and religious tolerance are very different.
    As I said...up to you if you want to continue. I think it’s a perfectly amicable discussion.
    Your absolutely right rA, there are some well known Jews who uphold their ethnicity, but profess not to believe or follow the Jewish religion.

    Religion is a belief system, anyone can join any religion, it is entirely possible to convert to the Jewish, Muslim, Sikh or any other faith (if they will have you). It isn't possible to convert from white to black.

    I'm fine with people having whatsoever belief they wish, as long as it doesn't impact negatively on me or life in general. Thats tolerance, I don't tolerate people of different race, to me they are all humans individually some of them may well not be people I would associate with or like but thats nothing to do with their race or ethnicity.

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