Taking the Knee

[laddo]

I'll skip over the passive aggressive dig at the end and just reassure you that my memory is fine, thanks.

As I said before I don't know how you are defining worldwide - maybe you're thinking in terms of English-speaking world, or UK-US world (if that's a thing) but it certainly wasn't big news where I was living in 2016. The protests around last spring/summer on the other hand, most definitely were.

Apart from that I don't really see what we're debating. I say it went mainstream with BLM, you say it 'evolved hugely'.

My general point, which I wouldn't mind getting back to, was to say that how people perceive taking the knee probably has more to do with how they became aware of it, and what they associate it with because of that, rather than how it originally started.

A comment about someone's memory is now classed as "passive aggressive dig"? Jeez, lighten up dude.

Out of interest where were you living in 2016?

[laddo]

Definitely not a dig drillerpie but you may find this old Grauniad piece interesting in relation to the Trump/Kaepernick hoohah in the US.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/22/donald-trump-nfl-national-anthem-protests

ETA: Having re-read it, I'm also shudderingly reminded of the former President's crass lack of understanding of the world around him, so that was a bonus

And that was in September 2017 a full year after his "He should find a country that works better for him" comment. There are lots of examples he was still making similar comments in 2020. Classic Donald

[drillerpie]

Definitely not a dig drillerpie but you may find this old Grauniad piece interesting in relation to the Trump/Kaepernick hoohah in the US.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/22/donald-trump-nfl-national-anthem-protests

ETA: Having re-read it, I'm also shudderingly reminded of the former President's crass lack of understanding of the world around him, so that was a bonus

No worries Swale I know you're not one to have digs!

I followed the whole spat between Kaepernick and Trump at the time and remember it well. Just for clarity I'm not denying that it happened, or denying that it was reported in the UK press.

I'm just saying that taking a knee didn't really get any traction outside the NFL until it was popularised by the BLM movement after George Floyd's death. By that I mean that it hadn't entered the mainstream public's consciousness and you never saw sports people or celebrities taking a knee (unless you watched NFL). That all changed with the BLM protests of 2020.

[BigFatPie]

No worries Swale I know you're not one to have digs!

I followed the whole spat between Kaepernick and Trump at the time and remember it well. Just for clarity I'm not denying that it happened, or denying that it was reported in the UK press.

I'm just saying that taking a knee didn't really get any traction outside the NFL until it was popularised by the BLM movement after George Floyd's death. By that I mean that it hadn't entered the mainstream public's consciousness and you never saw sports people or celebrities taking a knee (unless you watched NFL). That all changed with the BLM protests of 2020.

Do you think people should go to the bother of finding out about it’s origins before they boo players taking the knee?

For clarity, I think they should.

[drillerpie]

Do you think people should go to the bother of finding out about it’s origins before they boo players taking the knee?

For clarity, I think they should.

I don't know. I suppose there we are getting into the incredibly complicated terrain of what the 'real' meaning of that gesture is. This is always a very difficult conversation with gestures and symbols as they can mean different things to different people.

Here's a question for you: if you woke up after a bender to find your mates had got you a swastika tattoo, would you 1) go and research the origins and then leave it because the origins are totally benign, or 2) conclude that maybe the original meaning can be modified by subsequent events, which despite not keeping the original meaning were the events that made it most famous, and get it removed?

[laddo]

Wow!

[countygump]

I don't know. I suppose there we are getting into the incredibly complicated terrain of what the 'real' meaning of that gesture is. This is always a very difficult conversation with gestures and symbols as they can mean different things to different people.

Here's a question for you: if you woke up after a bender to find your mates had got you a swastika tattoo, would you 1) go and research the origins and then leave it because the origins are totally benign, or 2) conclude that maybe the original meaning can be modified by subsequent events, which despite not keeping the original meaning were the events that made it most famous, and get it removed?

You'd get it removed, I'm sure some know the original meaning and intention of the symbol but the majority of people will only ever associate it with Hitler.

[BigFatPie]

I don't know. I suppose there we are getting into the incredibly complicated terrain of what the 'real' meaning of that gesture is. This is always a very difficult conversation with gestures and symbols as they can mean different things to different people.

Here's a question for you: if you woke up after a bender to find your mates had got you a swastika tattoo, would you 1) go and research the origins and then leave it because the origins are totally benign, or 2) conclude that maybe the original meaning can be modified by subsequent events, which despite not keeping the original meaning were the events that made it most famous, and get it removed?

Blimey Driller, if marks were handed out for mental gymnastics, I award that post 9.0, 9.0, 9.0 etc.

Let’s cut to the chase. People can have their own objections but the England squad have repeatedly explained why they take the knee. Premier league players have explained why they’re going to take the knee this season, as have EFL players. If Notts players tell us they’re taking the knee and why and our own fans still boo them, then I think those fans are racist arseholes who aren’t worthy of the club they pretend to support.

There’s no other conclusion to come to.

[Mapperleypie]

I suppose if the Notts players do take the knee at the first home game and some folks sitting near me boo it will give me the heads up on who is worth having a conversation with and who is a bit thick or racist.

[Magpies1959]

If I was sitting next to BFP or Mapperleypie, I would know not to have a convertsation with them as it would be a pointless exercise, i.e. their way or no way. Laughingly they would say they were not fascists.
I doubt anyone on NCM is racist, and all would prefer it not to exist.
In answer to applepie2's question, what is the way forward from racism?, I think maybe a magic wand, or a level playing field regarding education and jobs. Then everyone could have a chance of achieving their ambitions. Oh and a realisation that we cannot change history, but can learn from our past mistakes.