O/T:- Michael Gove

[forwardmagpie]

How funny that the right wing press and the vast majority of Tory MPs were right behind a Labour leader’s war.

Some of us weren’t so easily conned.

We agree on something BFP it was a big regret that whilst living in London I was unable to go on the million person march to demonstrate against the proposed illegal war.

[HaylePie]

So we are not all equal...
However they do sell full swim suits not just bikinis, also some men feel uncomfortable in such situations.How many ***ual crimes take place in the pool and changing areas ? I've been swimming many many many years and have never seen a crime in the manner you have identified, I'm not saying it never happens but many is a term I would question so some figures to support this claim would help qualify if it was questionable or has validity.

Would you notice the staring, the leering, the letching? If men are stared at they are likely to take it as a compliment, they are suddenly George Clooney. Women are more likely to feel uncomfortable - often the purpose of the stare. Men prey on women, not the other way round. If women need a bit of space to relax away from men then is that such a bad thing? Men cannot act the way some do and then claim 'it's not fair' when dedicated time is set aside purely for women (&/or LGBT+) .

[BigFatPie]

Even that isn't straightforward tho BFP. Is the trans colleague genuine trans or a manipulative individual gaining access to women's safe spaces? How would you safeguard both parties - separate the genuine from the dangerous? This is the sort of issue women are raising and meeting with immediate accusations of transphobia - often very aggressively. Debate is stifled.

Oh yeah I’ve noticed this issue is vicious online, with abuse being slung from both sides. This contrasts starkly with my own very limited experience of the subject, where people were very understanding and accepting.

Entirely agree with what you say regarding safeguarding. I have no idea how you separate the genuine from the dangerous. Trans activists object when the default setting is to assume a trans woman might be an offender, with some justification. But women and girls do have to be protected.

[cher1]

If the issue was as straightforward as males and females there wouldn’t be an problem.

Just wondering if you thought it was right for my trans colleague to use the women’s toilet facilities?

But there are only females and males...
I'll answer your question.

I'd like there to be gender neutral toilets in addition to *** based toilets - the so called third space. If women are uncomfortable with a male in their toilets then I think there should be alternative provision made for anyone who isn't female and doesn't want to use male toilets. Single *** toilets are a right enshrined in law. Why should women always have to be kind, give up their safe spaces to men? And why is it women's problem to solve?

I'll ask again, do you think males have the right to undress and shower in front of ****age girls? Plus all the other questions?

[PedroTheFisherman66]

Would you notice the staring, the leering, the letching? If men are stared at they are likely to take it as a compliment, they are suddenly George Clooney. Women are more likely to feel uncomfortable - often the purpose of the stare. Men prey on women, not the other way round. If women need a bit of space to relax away from men then that is that such a bad thing? Men cannot act the way some do and then claim 'it's not fair' when dedicated time is set aside purely for women (&/or LGBT+) .

So we are not all equal then....simple
No some men might feel intimidated physically in such an environment but you seem to have dismissed that straight out of hand.
I have eyes I think I would notice someone leering and letching. Why not have a men only session is not fair they have their own dedicated space as not to be accused of letching and leering.

[cher1]

Oh yeah I’ve noticed this issue is vicious online, with abuse being slung from both sides. This contrasts starkly with my own very limited experience of the subject, where people were very understanding and accepting.

Entirely agree with what you say regarding safeguarding. I have no idea how you separate the genuine from the dangerous. Trans activists object when the default setting is to assume a trans woman might be an offender, with some justification. But women and girls do have to be protected.

Agree with all of that BFP. Women don't think all men are potential offenders, of course we don't. But women and girls must be safeguarded, and that's why we have single *** (not gender) spaces.

[cher1]

So we are not all equal then....simple
No some men might feel intimidated physically in such an environment but you seem to have dismissed that straight out of hand.
I have eyes I think I would notice someone leering and letching. Why not have a men only session is not fair they have their own dedicated space as not to be accused of letching and leering.

If you want a men only swimming session, get campaigning for it. It's not women's work to sort that for you.

You know as well as me that ***ual violence, harassment, whatever, is a male perpetrated crime in the vast majority of cases.

As for the leering and letching, I think your radar might be a tiny bit off, given the Liz Truss thread 😅

[Woodypie]

Well yes actually. Odd as it is to say that. Rosie Duffield has been silenced, threatened and terrorised to the extent she can't attend the Labour party conference. Yet Starmer is silent. Lisa Nandy has said that male child rapists who decide to identify as women should be in women's prisons. Starmer is silent. I could give you pages of similar examples.

There isn't much going for the Tories, but in terms of knowing what a woman is, people are much more able to speak out. Liz Truss, whose brief includes Women and Equality, has been very clear on this (Google Nick Ferrari Liz Truss). There are plenty of other Tories who have spoken up against the erasure of women's rights, including bizarrely Robert Jenrick.

The Lib Dems are a lost cause, particularly after Ed Davey's car crash interview yesterday with Andrew Marr.

As far as I know, Ed Davey is the only MP that supports Notts. At least, he told me that he did.

[PedroTheFisherman66]

If you want a men only swimming session, get campaigning for it. It's not women's work to sort that for you.

You know as well as me that ***ual violence, harassment, whatever, is a male perpetrated crime in the vast majority of cases.

As for the leering and letching, I think your radar might be a tiny bit off, given the Liz Truss thread 😅

What have ***ual harassment and violence got to do with a swimming pool environment? If harassment takes place remove and ban the said Individual.
Are the vast cases of ***ual violence committed in swimming pools and its changing facilities?
I'm sure leering and letching was or is nothing like the truss post.im sure women don't go around discussing the physical attributes of the Male species for example possibly footballers.
Perhaps some women take themselves to seriously if offended by such a post and like I say in the spirit of equality I gave you ladies Gove as an option to mentally gaze upon or not as the case may be.
As far as I'm aware there was no campaigning to get ladies only nights it was thrust upon us due to social conditioning and women's organisations making wild outlandish claims as per your examples.
However in the spirit of equality men shouldnt have to campaign for such equal rights they should be automatically assigned.

After all we are all equal.its just some are more equal than others....👍🤭🤣

[magpie_mania]

Absolutely with Cher on this.

Equality should not mean that everyone should be treated exactly the same but that everyone should be given equal value.

It should be a fundamental recognised right that male and female should have separate toilets, changing rooms etc available. The way forward imo should be gender neutral facilities in addition to (not instead of) mens and ladies.

Interestingly, the National Trust have uni*** toilets, with cubicles, in some places. My wife said that she felt uncomfortable and I also felt awkward that I may be making some ladies feel uncomfortable.

We need to be very careful where this is all going, and where the minority have rights which trump the rights of the vast majority.