Recruiting Policy

[ozleeds]

I think that ship sailed here about 20 years ago Oz

I know it has so what's the point of Academy's>? No point talking about them.

[WTF11]

I know it has so what's the point of Academy's>? No point talking about them.

I'm sure Whitestomper will contribute his views on the wisdom of both having an Academy and having it "perform" by way of having teams who win in the lower echelons.

Fact is, if the Academy was run correctly, and recruitment was wisely managed, it's a revenue stream all of its own, via player sales once youngsters have been "fattened up". Unfortunately, as with all other "recruitment", acquisitions are under the control of you know who, and both volume and value of said acquisitions have been, and continue to be, poor in terms of return on investment.

There are a small number of "home grown" players like Cresswell, who looks "the real deal" when it comes to 1st team potential, and a similar small number of young players brought in from other UK leagues/clubs, such as Gelhardt and McInstry, and then there are the swathes of young players brought in from all over the globe, farmed out on loan, given 10 minutes (if any at all) in 1st team appearances before being sold on to lower league clubs at a loss. All of the above is capable of being verified, not just my opinion.

That's NOT a recipe for a successful business (which is usually buy low, sell high, we seem intent on doing exactly the opposite). So, in answer to your question, "what's the point of an Academy"? Not much whilst the current DoF is in post

[hopelesslyoptimistic]

I'm sure Whitestomper will contribute his views on the wisdom of both having an Academy and having it "perform" by way of having teams who win in the lower echelons.

Fact is, if the Academy was run correctly, and recruitment was wisely managed, it's a revenue stream all of its own, via player sales once youngsters have been "fattened up". Unfortunately, as with all other "recruitment", acquisitions are under the control of you know who, and both volume and value of said acquisitions have been, and continue to be, poor in terms of return on investment.

There are a small number of "home grown" players like Cresswell, who looks "the real deal" when it comes to 1st team potential, and a similar small number of young players brought in from other UK leagues/clubs, such as Gelhardt and McInstry, and then there are the swathes of young players brought in from all over the globe, farmed out on loan, given 10 minutes (if any at all) in 1st team appearances before being sold on to lower league clubs at a loss. All of the above is capable of being verified, not just my opinion.

That's NOT a recipe for a successful business (which is usually buy low, sell high, we seem intent on doing exactly the opposite). So, in answer to your question, "what's the point of an Academy"? Not much whilst the current DoF is in post

Without wishing to argue I have a different POV on Orta and the Academy - Meslier and Struijk alone justifying the good work there and there is a lot of input from MB too in how it operates.

[ozleeds]

Without wishing to argue I have a different POV on Orta and the Academy - Meslier and Struijk alone justifying the good work there and there is a lot of input from MB too in how it operates.

You seem to miss the point as you keep mentioning those 2. Meslier would still be on the bench if Kiko didn't get suspended. Pat got a run due to so many injuries and as they made their way back he was dropped only to appear again as the crocks went down again.
The same will go with Summer Cres Shak once the crocks come back they'll be dropped that is the MB way.

[WTF11]

Without wishing to argue I have a different POV on Orta and the Academy - Meslier and Struijk alone justifying the good work there and there is a lot of input from MB too in how it operates.

Whatever your opinion or mine on Orta, there are some inescapable FACTS that you are either unaware of, or have simply ignored, in the post #13.

As Oz points out, you miss the point regarding what an Academy is supposed to be for. In addition to Oz's comment regarding how Meslier and Struijk found opportunity in the 1st team, perhaps a bit of background on how they both came to the club would help?

Meslier was brought in on 8 August 2019, as a loanee from French club Lorient, for whom he had made by that time 37 FIRST TEAM appearances, following the sale of BPF to Burnley (2 August 2019), which itself followed the bringing to ER that stellar GK asset, Koko the clown, who was given 1st choice GK position despite the performance of BPF and Koko being VERY similar. Continuing as second choice to Koko until In early 2020 cup competitions provided an opportunity for 1st team appearance and so impressive that he also appeared for the 1st team against Hull in February 2020. Following Kokos suspension, Meslier became 1st choice GK for the rest of the season, and the rest, as they say, is history. So Meslier was in the "Academy" workstream for about 4 months, before playing for the 1st team, and you are saying that (along with Struijk, which I'll come to in a second) "justify the good work there"?

Pascal Struijk joined Leeds on trial in January of 2018, (prior to his contract with Ajax expiring in the summer of that year), before signing permanently later that month on a three-and-a-half year deal. He was named as a (unused) sub in March 2018 in a game against Villa, and in both legs of the playoffs against Derby (again, unused) with 1st team debut coming in December 2019. He appeared in a total of 5 games of the 19/20 season, and 27 times in the 20/21 season. Again, time at the Academy limited to a few months (given the summer break following his arrival in 2018).

So in summary, lets be generous and say that between them Meslier and Struijk have spent between them, a year in the "Academy", keeping game fit, as opposed to the kind of development you would expect a genuine Academy player to be going through (as an example, the kind of process you might imagine Jenkins, McCarron or Coleman to be undergoing, and which Cresswell already has). That ISN'T worthy of the funds lavished on the Academy

The Academy COULD be valuable, but surely it has to produce more than one player the likes of Cresswell (who is the first "home grown" Academy player to show for the 1st team since Phillips!) every 6 years (KP debuted for the 1st team in 2015)? One player a year of 1st team standard shouldn't be beyond reason, although it would make those who scout for talent to be brought to the club at a young age work a damned sight harder and no bad thing! Whether such a player stayed at the club is open to debate, and would depend upon a whole load of variables that don't belong in this post, but generating that kind of 1st class player volume would be good for revenue AND good for the 1st team, who would know that not only is the club looking at those already playing 1st team football elsewhere, but also developing plans for home-grown talent that will also put pressure on 1st teamers to perform.

[spaldy]

Surely our academy ranks in the top 10 in the UK?

pretty good, especially when you consider that 5 years ago we were losing out to practically every team in the FA. It's easy to forgot those days when we couldn't hardly sign any loanees and lost our players to powerhouses such as Norwich? we had to develop many of our own players just to field a competitive team.

[WTF11]

Surely our academy ranks in the top 10 in the UK?

pretty good, especially when you consider that 5 years ago we were losing out to practically every team in the FA. It's easy to forgot those days when we couldn't hardly sign any loanees and lost our players to powerhouses such as Norwich? we had to develop many of our own players just to field a competitive team.

Ranks in the top 10 for.........? 1st team graduates, quality of training facility gauged against FA specification, quality of sandwiches in the cafe, ratio of training staff to players (of all ages), quality of classroom equipment, physio capacity/capability? Of all those, the first is the only one that will deliver real value. I know of no-one other than Cresswell who has developed through the Academy "process" as opposed to being brought in as Meslier and Struijk were with the Academy acting as not much more than a keep-fit regime for players until they gained 1st team positions.

And as for 5 years ago, the "develop many of our own" tactic produced Phillips and err..............not much else! The team/squad that got us promotion was in being 5 years ago, check if you don't believe me. the squad we have NOW is largely that which we had then, check again if you don't believe me. We have NOT "developed many of our own" we have "polished" some incoming players, (and not many have been found capable of polishing either). I go back to what I said about an acceptable (and achievable) player development pipeline, that should be what the club and in particular the DoF seeks to achieve (make it one of his salary KPIs, it would happen overnight)

[WTF11]

Ranks in the top 10 for.........? 1st team graduates, quality of training facility gauged against FA specification, quality of sandwiches in the cafe, ratio of training staff to players (of all ages), quality of classroom equipment, physio capacity/capability? Of all those, the first is the only one that will deliver real value. I know of no-one other than Cresswell who has developed through the Academy "process" as opposed to being brought in as Meslier and Struijk were with the Academy acting as not much more than a keep-fit regime for players until they gained 1st team positions.

And as for 5 years ago, the "develop many of our own" tactic produced Phillips and err..............not much else! The team/squad that got us promotion was in being 5 years ago, check if you don't believe me. the squad we have NOW is largely that which we had then, check again if you don't believe me. We have NOT "developed many of our own" we have "polished" some incoming players, (and not many have been found capable of polishing either). I go back to what I said about an acceptable (and achievable) player development pipeline, that should be what the club and in particular the DoF seeks to achieve (make it one of his salary KPIs, it would happen overnight)

To re-inforce the point about past history and what has or has not been developed, four "home grown" players, who played many times for the Leeds 1st team, were products of the Academy MANY years before the arrival of Radrizzani the saviour, Orta the not-so-magnificent and the great god Bielsa;

Charlie Taylor - Debut (and not in the 95th minute as a sub!) - August 2011

Sam Byram - Debut - August 2012

Alex Mowatt - Debut august 2013

Lewis Cook - Debut - (as sub, but at least for 30 minutes, not 5!) August 2014

And unlike all those I reviewed following HOS comment about how many youngsters Bielsa had "given" debuts to, all the above went on to feature as key players in the 1st team.

So, from 2011 to 2014 a player into the 1st team from the Academy every year, not so hard after all (except now, it seems to be)?

[hopelesslyoptimistic]

To re-inforce the point about past history and what has or has not been developed, four "home grown" players, who played many times for the Leeds 1st team, were products of the Academy MANY years before the arrival of Radrizzani the saviour, Orta the not-so-magnificent and the great god Bielsa;

Charlie Taylor - Debut (and not in the 95th minute as a sub!) - August 2011

Sam Byram - Debut - August 2012

Alex Mowatt - Debut august 2013

Lewis Cook - Debut - (as sub, but at least for 30 minutes, not 5!) August 2014

And unlike all those I reviewed following HOS comment about how many youngsters Bielsa had "given" debuts to, all the above went on to feature as key players in the 1st team.

So, from 2011 to 2014 a player into the 1st team from the Academy every year, not so hard after all (except now, it seems to be)?

I only have you the details as you queried the stat as to whether that many got their debuts.


There are a number of criteria you can judge the academy by.

1 what are the facilities like?

top class we have the top rating and the main pitch is now the same as at ER. On that score seems to perform well.

2. Does it produce talent?

Seems to but to be fair it always has. We now seem to more proactively supplement ‘home grown’ talent with acquisitions from around 1617 upwards. It looks as if the rate at which talent could be available will maybe be slightly ahead of what we had before and a bigger depth of talent, Big tick there.

3. Do the u23/18/16 perform well?

Yes they seem to we win things at all of those age groups and are in the top league for u23 and look like we have a fair chance of winning it? Again a big tick there. It is also good that players develop in a winking culture.

4. Is there a gateway to the first team?

Will be a different view from some on this but I would say yes. It may be harder than when we were in League 1 or the Championship but that is because the quality gap is a bigger step up. In the last few seasons since MB - Meslier, Shackleton, Robert’s and Struijk have stepped up. This season Summerville so far has had decent playtime and now Cresweell is too. I don’t mind that the players are not randomly thrown in. Sure a couple more will make the leap sooner or later.

Greenwood, and Bate both joined as they thought there was a pathway - listen to the interview they have given.

Having those 6 alone as part of a first team 18 and some playing regularly is impressive.

5. Does it make money?

I don’t have the financials but we seem to sell on players that won’t make the first team and it surely saves us money if we don’t have to buy players at the top end of the market but they come. A lot of the players who went this year were sold for a fee. others on loan are earning us money to offset their wages.

It does seem to be run much more sensibly and professionally than in the previous 12.

It doesn’t look like a develop talent and flog factory like the top 4 operate which is a good thing IMO - instead buy talent to develop for the first team and if it doesn’t cut it offload.

As such, not sure how people can be so scathing about this other than through a desire to have a pop at Orta.

Tin hat ready for incoming .:……

[WTF11]

I only have you the details as you queried the stat as to whether that many got their debuts.


There are a number of criteria you can judge the academy by.

1 what are the facilities like?

top class we have the top rating and the main pitch is now the same as at ER. On that score seems to perform well.

2. Does it produce talent?

Seems to but to be fair it always has. We now seem to more proactively supplement ‘home grown’ talent with acquisitions from around 1617 upwards. It looks as if the rate at which talent could be available will maybe be slightly ahead of what we had before and a bigger depth of talent, Big tick there.

3. Do the u23/18/16 perform well?

Yes they seem to we win things at all of those age groups and are in the top league for u23 and look like we have a fair chance of winning it? Again a big tick there. It is also good that players develop in a winking culture.

4. Is there a gateway to the first team?

Will be a different view from some on this but I would say yes. It may be harder than when we were in League 1 or the Championship but that is because the quality gap is a bigger step up. In the last few seasons since MB - Meslier, Shackleton, Robert’s and Struijk have stepped up. This season Summerville so far has had decent playtime and now Cresweell is too. I don’t mind that the players are not randomly thrown in. Sure a couple more will make the leap sooner or later.

Greenwood, and Bate both joined as they thought there was a pathway - listen to the interview they have given.

Having those 6 alone as part of a first team 18 and some playing regularly is impressive.

5. Does it make money?

I don’t have the financials but we seem to sell on players that won’t make the first team and it surely saves us money if we don’t have to buy players at the top end of the market but they come. A lot of the players who went this year were sold for a fee. others on loan are earning us money to offset their wages.

It does seem to be run much more sensibly and professionally than in the previous 12.

It doesn’t look like a develop talent and flog factory like the top 4 operate which is a good thing IMO - instead buy talent to develop for the first team and if it doesn’t cut it offload.

As such, not sure how people can be so scathing about this other than through a desire to have a pop at Orta.

Tin hat ready for incoming .:……

Not sure why you think it's tin hat time, doesn't take much to demolish that set of nonsense, just can't be bothered with anything LIKE the response it deserves. You (and others) accuse me of shifting ground, look in the mirror why don't you.

Just to bring you (and others) back to the point (paraphrased but which in fairness you ask yourself), does the Academy provide 1st team candidates and do they get opportunities as part of a PLANNED development path for young players?

My examples from 2011 - 2014 show that at least during that period they did. Phillips debut was in 2015, so another year when at least one player came through. Since then?

Your points;

Point 1. I have no personal knowledge but I'm not going to argue the point with you, but as with Point 3, it means f00k all if you're not developing and delivering 1st team candidates (and they are getting planned opportunities for 1st team appearance)

Point (2) We had one player a year from 2011 to 2015 graduate to be regulars in the 1st team, since then one (Shackleton). How does that equate to the rate of talent availability being "slightly ahead" of what we had before (before what???)

Point (3) I guess you meant a winning culture? No disagreement there, but it means jacksh1t if that doesn't result in a pipeline into the 1st team (see above & below)

Point (4) Please, for the last time.....the Academy played next to no part in the development of Meslier, Roberts (WTF???????, he graduated from the Baggies Academy FFS!), or Struijk. Only Shackleton, who got his debut in 2018, is an Academy grad, (I'll give you that one)

Point (5) I don't have the detailed financials either, but I suspect you could make a fair stab and the profit and loss on sales of those (for instance the 15 or so that were sold after being given that oh so valuable "debut"! you mentioned previously, and it wouldn't make pretty reading

How on earth can you make a statement such as "It does seem to be run much more sensibly and professionally than in the previous 12" (years, months, seasons, decades? I'll plump for years, correct me if wrong), when for five years at the beginning of the second decade of this century a player graduated into the 1st team in each and every year, and for the last five years that has been reduced to ONE!???????

I agree it doesn't look like a "develop talent and flog factory", it looks more like a "can't identify enough real talent to make a stab at 1st team development so flog what you can for what you can get - factory"

If Orta was any good at his job, he would be making sure that the Academy matches the performance that it delivered when we had the likes of Redfearn and Rosler as manager and the Mad Italian as owner. Surely the new, professional, highly skilled, data driven DoF can match those kind of pairings? Doesn't need me (or anyone else) to "have a pop at Orta". None of what I have posted is open to question, it is fact capable of the most rigorous verification you like. Only the ability of the current management team is being debated. Their ability to ensure that the current Academy matches the performance of that institution as it was when under very different, some might say less "able" management. Just needs the guy and his team to do a half decent job of work, they all get paid handsomely to do so.