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Thread: O/T well said Dion Dublin

  1. #41
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    Going back to the OP, I would say that black history is part of British history. Our colonial past shaped the country in which we live and the personal histories of millions of British citizens and residents.

    I can only speak as to the teaching of history at Broom Valley and South Grove in the 70s, but I can’t recall anything being taught about anything that could be called black history. The only time the syllabus made it to Africa was when we did bits about ancient Egypt and I don’t recall it going to the Indian subcontinent at all. Maybe that has changed. I hope that it has.

    The problem is that there is an awful lot of human history and there have to be decisions about what is taught and what is not. The focus should be upon the history that shaped our country and our lives, which gets me back to the point that black history has done just that. There needs to be room made for it.

    I have no more difficulty with a Black History Month than I would with an Industrial Revolution Month or a Roman Britain Month. I could lap it all up.

    I agree with earlier posters that we should all look to get to the point where skin colour is as irrelevant as shoe size or whether we can roll our tongues or not. I also agree with earlier posters that we shouldn’t stop talking about racism while ever it exists, but it is the manner in which it is now spoken about that is becoming the issue. An equality and diversity industry/movement has grown up to variously make money, a sense or moral superiority or political advantage out of the issue with little regard for the actual consequences of their words and actions.

    If you tell a poor white person who is struggling to pay their bills or get a decent education for their kids that they benefit from ‘white privilege’ or tell them that they should apologise for the transatlantic slave trade of the 17th and 18th century they are going to tell you to ‘**** off’. Keep telling them and some will quickly embrace far right politics by way of a reaction. It’s clear from reading certain posts on here that there is a sense of resentment at work in some posters.

    Sadly, the equality and diversity industry/movement will also stick their oars in to the teaching of black history. I recall being tag teamed by Exile and Raging in a storm of blether for pointing out the historical fact that black African slavers fed huge numbers of people into the transatlantic slave trade. Speaking of that reality broke their rules.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    4,799
    I have no more difficulty with a Black History Month than I would with an Industrial Revolution Month or a Roman Britain Month. I could lap it all up.

    So could probably everyone else, but we all know it wont happen unless people come under pressure, but it'll be a long time.....

    Good read Kerr.....

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    18,189
    Good post Kerr, I’m reserving judgement though until it’s been critiqued, analysed and fact checked by an opinionated B1tcoin billionaire

  4. #44
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    22,398
    Quote Originally Posted by KerrAvon View Post
    Going back to the OP, I would say that black history is part of British history. Our colonial past shaped the country in which we live and the personal histories of millions of British citizens and residents.

    I can only speak as to the teaching of history at Broom Valley and South Grove in the 70s, but I can’t recall anything being taught about anything that could be called black history. The only time the syllabus made it to Africa was when we did bits about ancient Egypt and I don’t recall it going to the Indian subcontinent at all. Maybe that has changed. I hope that it has.

    The problem is that there is an awful lot of human history and there have to be decisions about what is taught and what is not. The focus should be upon the history that shaped our country and our lives, which gets me back to the point that black history has done just that. There needs to be room made for it.

    I have no more difficulty with a Black History Month than I would with an Industrial Revolution Month or a Roman Britain Month. I could lap it all up.

    I agree with earlier posters that we should all look to get to the point where skin colour is as irrelevant as shoe size or whether we can roll our tongues or not. I also agree with earlier posters that we shouldn’t stop talking about racism while ever it exists, but it is the manner in which it is now spoken about that is becoming the issue. An equality and diversity industry/movement has grown up to variously make money, a sense or moral superiority or political advantage out of the issue with little regard for the actual consequences of their words and actions.

    If you tell a poor white person who is struggling to pay their bills or get a decent education for their kids that they benefit from ‘white privilege’ or tell them that they should apologise for the transatlantic slave trade of the 17th and 18th century they are going to tell you to ‘**** off’. Keep telling them and some will quickly embrace far right politics by way of a reaction. It’s clear from reading certain posts on here that there is a sense of resentment at work in some posters.

    Sadly, the equality and diversity industry/movement will also stick their oars in to the teaching of black history. I recall being tag teamed by Exile and Raging in a storm of blether for pointing out the historical fact that black African slavers fed huge numbers of people into the transatlantic slave trade. Speaking of that reality broke their rules.
    gave up after. going

  5. #45
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    Pity, crash. Kerr Avon pretty much nailed it.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerrAvon View Post
    An equality and diversity industry/movement has grown up to variously make money, a sense or moral superiority or political advantage out of the issue with little regard for the actual consequences of their words and actions.
    Along those very lines I was today informed by our Office of Civil Rights, Equity & Inclusion that the organisation we work for has a White Supremacy Culture and they can't understand why some white people are offended with that description. I actually had to Google the term to enlighten myself of it's origin and meaning and apparently one of the traits of such organisations is a culture where the expected norms of employee behaviour are set by white people. Hmmm. I restrained myself from asking our Office of Civil Rights, Equity & Inclusion whether they were advocating we all started calling each other "Motherf%$ker" in our company meetings!

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    7,297
    Somebody will have made good money coming up with that rubbish, Cam. Others will make good money writing 'action plans' about how to tackle that culture. Will any of that do anything to address racism and inequality? Being as polite and kind as I can be, I would say that doubt it.

    Occasionally, it all goes a bit wrong:

    https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nat...244309587.html

  8. #48
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    Jul 2005
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    7,310
    Quote Originally Posted by KerrAvon View Post
    Going back to the OP, I would say that black history is part of British history. Our colonial past shaped the country in which we live and the personal histories of millions of British citizens and residents.

    I can only speak as to the teaching of history at Broom Valley and South Grove in the 70s, but I can’t recall anything being taught about anything that could be called black history. The only time the syllabus made it to Africa was when we did bits about ancient Egypt and I don’t recall it going to the Indian subcontinent at all. Maybe that has changed. I hope that it has.

    The problem is that there is an awful lot of human history and there have to be decisions about what is taught and what is not. The focus should be upon the history that shaped our country and our lives, which gets me back to the point that black history has done just that. There needs to be room made for it.

    I have no more difficulty with a Black History Month than I would with an Industrial Revolution Month or a Roman Britain Month. I could lap it all up.

    I agree with earlier posters that we should all look to get to the point where skin colour is as irrelevant as shoe size or whether we can roll our tongues or not. I also agree with earlier posters that we shouldn’t stop talking about racism while ever it exists, but it is the manner in which it is now spoken about that is becoming the issue. An equality and diversity industry/movement has grown up to variously make money, a sense or moral superiority or political advantage out of the issue with little regard for the actual consequences of their words and actions.

    If you tell a poor white person who is struggling to pay their bills or get a decent education for their kids that they benefit from ‘white privilege’ or tell them that they should apologise for the transatlantic slave trade of the 17th and 18th century they are going to tell you to ‘**** off’. Keep telling them and some will quickly embrace far right politics by way of a reaction. It’s clear from reading certain posts on here that there is a sense of resentment at work in some posters.

    Sadly, the equality and diversity industry/movement will also stick their oars in to the teaching of black history. I recall being tag teamed by Exile and Raging in a storm of blether for pointing out the historical fact that black African slavers fed huge numbers of people into the transatlantic slave trade. Speaking of that reality broke their rules.
    Some good points Kerr. I agree with much of it but a key point you made is that “we shouldn’t stop talking about racism while ever it exists, but it is the manner in which it is now spoken about that is becoming the issue” – and you rightly raise the problem that some actions, in some cases well meaning, in other cases not so much, can be counter productive in getting close to the point “where skin colour is as irrelevant as shoe size or whether we can roll our tongues or not”.

    I haven’t posted much on the ‘taking of the knee’ as this is a good case in point; I can understand why many teams insist on keeping the gesture going, but I can also understand that some people can’t/won’t separate it from the political BLM movement and actively oppose it, so is it doing the good that it intends or making it even harder to reach the end goal you argue etc.

    For me, the fact that “we shouldn’t stop talking about racism” is always going to be difficult because a large number of people simply don’t want to talk about racism and will go to large extents to shut any such conversation down. So I agree with you that we shouldn’t stop talking about it, but in what manner are we going to talk about it, and who is going to decide what is the right way to talk about and what isn’t? For me, as a white person brought up in a pit village, screwed up at school but somehow was the first in family and friends to go into HE, I understand your point that it might be rum for it to be pointed out that I and others that come from relatively underprivileged white working class backgrounds are beneficiaries of white privilege, and you’re right that these are words to be used with caution, but at the same time, as I walk and drive around London, unlike my black colleagues here, I guess I do have the privilege that I am not regularly stopped by police as they are. And these are my working professional colleagues, who have grown up with and still experience this.

    My worry with us white guys interjecting our thoughts onto the debate on what we should/shouldn’t do, or what is/isn’t acceptable as a means of keeping the discussion on racism going (as you say defining “the manner in which it is now spoken” and by extension, should be spoken in the future, is that however hard we try, we can’t identify with the Black experience of the racism that we accept we need to keep talking about. So there is a danger of us ‘whitesplaining’ what should/shouldn’t be done/said to reach the end goal that most of us agree with. *I would agree though that this shouldn’t stop objections if we see damage is being done to the overall objectives of the cause and know that many who do raise objections genuinely share your concerns that the end goal is being damaged. I would also agree that there are movers in the debate that are making good money out of keeping conflict going, but I would argue these are few amongst most who remain active in a debate in which the complexity of the issues makes it very easy to turn the other way and do nothing.

    Sorry you were offended about me picking you up on your point about black slave traders being complicit in the operation. I don’t recall this discussion particularly well but I think my objection was more to your point appearing to be a ‘whataboutery’ shut down of a discussion on racism rather than disputing your facts and we have plenty on here already capable of doing that!

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
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    24,672
    Not bad mr Kerr but as in most of your arguments you ignore questions about power relations . Look it up in a good gcse socology book. I dont know mi sen but I would think someone in the legal trade might find it useful to know summat about how society works. Just a thought.

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