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Thread: 23 and under players.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
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    23 and under players.

    Since my internet came with free to watch premier league I have been watching more and more games when I'm feeling well.
    I see big teams like Chelsea and the likes playing players under 21 and not just cameo appearances full games and doing really well. I also see the young lads they let go playing full games straight after arriving eg Southampton lad crystal palace so on.
    I know what MB is like and it is a shame especially when our team is not playing so well he still won't play them even after they play well. First, we had Creswell who played brilliantly in his 2 games only not to be seen again only to see Cooper. Drahma same did ever so well and can't get a game even though we don't have a right back.
    JG again turned the game against wolves and looked brilliant not seen again.
    We also have the so-called star from Chelsea who has not had a look in.
    I do not get him MB that is as again I stress he was known to favour young players at previous clubs so what has changed in his thoughts.
    The result I'm seeing is they go back and are not the same due to disappointment and do not perform as if anyone cares to look at our last 4 5 under 23 and 21 games they are not the same as when the season started.
    MB is hindering their progress not developing them as to how on earth do you develop a 23-year-old.
    My thoughts are I hope he wakes up from his slumber and starts introducing and letting them play alongside the Phillips Raph Bamfs as that is how they will improve.
    I understand last season's team did so well no change was needed but this season is a different story and we have seen the same hesitancy.
    We are so lucky all the teams around us and a few from the top are playing badly otherwise our season so far would have been a disaster.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    10,524
    Difference between us and them is we had a poor academy set up till MB came in. Those players they play have generally had 2 full years out on loan and been in their academy for a long time.

    I am also not sure where you are getting the clubs from who are doing so well and playing a bunch of U21s, if you look at the top 6 you've got:

    Chelsea
    Reece James (21)
    Mason Mount (22)
    Trevor Chalboah (22) few appearances
    Malang Sarr (22) sub
    Hudson-Odoi (21) Sub appearances
    Not sure if you are counting Loftus-Cheek in your thinking but he is 25

    Scum
    Mason Greenwood (20)
    Jadon Sancho (21) Doesn't get a kick and is being horribly managed

    Marabchester City
    Phil Foden (21) 2 years of intense focus with no loan out and now look at how good he is

    Liverpool
    Alexander-Arnold (23) Old
    Curtis Jones (21) Gets games when others are injured

    West Ham
    Ben Johnson (21)
    Declan Rice (22)

    Arsenal
    Smith-Rowe (21)
    Tavares (21)
    Saka (20)
    Odegaard (22)
    Lokonga (22)

    I was going to do likes of Spurs but whats the point they don't play any kids whatsoever

    When you look at that and compare it to our 'good' youngster we have:

    Meslier (21)
    Struijk (22)
    Shackleton (22)
    Summerville (20)
    Gelhardt (19)
    Drameh (19)
    Greenwood (19)
    Cresswell (19)

    Out of those Meslier, Struijk and Shackleton prior to his injury were playing regularly so we have as many 22 or younger players in the squad if not more than most of the teams up the top currently.

    Whilst I agree I'd like to see them more I am also mindful of the fact that though Gelhardt did come on and change the game vs Wolves he has also come on and not had much impact (which is not his fault, because he is a young kid) so that always needs to be kept in mind. Likes of Summerville and Gelhardt need to be given these short opportunities against tired defenses to build their skills and understanding then build up to the first team picture as regular starters.

    When you also look at the ages of players they're playing from what I know none of them are playing kids under 20 which is the age of most of what you'd call our promising players. So although some may be playing youngsters, they aren't like ours and some of those clubs have paid in the tens of millions for these kids.

    I agree I'd like to see more of the youngsters but I also trust in our club to manage these kids properly, I remember they days I'd be sat there wondering why people were so desperate for Dom Poleon to play like he was the next big thing so sometimes we don't see what they're seeing on the training ground.

    Look at how Pep handled Foden people were clamouring for him to be sent out on loan, given more first team minutes and he was held off for 18 months and now he is probably the most exciting young player in the country.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    I'd love to see more of the U-23's. Especially in the case of Klich, Harrison or even James. However, where I'd most like to see it is with Cooper. Strujiks the real deal and we could probably play Cresswell or Drameh. we'd be much better down the road once they adjsuted.

    However, like Joel, I do have faith in this Manager and exec staff overall. we'll be fine this year as we are playing much better. It was scary the first part of the season.

    I'm counting Koch out for the season and have some strong concerns on Bamford. Looks like they are dragging out quite a bit. Reminiscent of Forshaw and Llorente.

    I do think we'll likely to have a much different team next year with the possibility of losing MB, Meslier, Phillips and Raph. we might need the U-23's quicker than we think.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by joellufcprice View Post
    Difference between us and them is we had a poor academy set up till MB came in. Those players they play have generally had 2 full years out on loan and been in their academy for a long time.

    I am also not sure where you are getting the clubs from who are doing so well and playing a bunch of U21s, if you look at the top 6 you've got:

    Chelsea
    Reece James (21)
    Mason Mount (22)
    Trevor Chalboah (22) few appearances
    Malang Sarr (22) sub
    Hudson-Odoi (21) Sub appearances
    Not sure if you are counting Loftus-Cheek in your thinking but he is 25

    Scum
    Mason Greenwood (20)
    Jadon Sancho (21) Doesn't get a kick and is being horribly managed

    Marabchester City
    Phil Foden (21) 2 years of intense focus with no loan out and now look at how good he is

    Liverpool
    Alexander-Arnold (23) Old
    Curtis Jones (21) Gets games when others are injured

    West Ham
    Ben Johnson (21)
    Declan Rice (22)

    Arsenal
    Smith-Rowe (21)
    Tavares (21)
    Saka (20)
    Odegaard (22)
    Lokonga (22)

    I was going to do likes of Spurs but whats the point they don't play any kids whatsoever

    When you look at that and compare it to our 'good' youngster we have:

    Meslier (21)
    Struijk (22)
    Shackleton (22)
    Summerville (20)
    Gelhardt (19)
    Drameh (19)
    Greenwood (19)
    Cresswell (19)

    Out of those Meslier, Struijk and Shackleton prior to his injury were playing regularly so we have as many 22 or younger players in the squad if not more than most of the teams up the top currently.

    Whilst I agree I'd like to see them more I am also mindful of the fact that though Gelhardt did come on and change the game vs Wolves he has also come on and not had much impact (which is not his fault, because he is a young kid) so that always needs to be kept in mind. Likes of Summerville and Gelhardt need to be given these short opportunities against tired defenses to build their skills and understanding then build up to the first team picture as regular starters.

    When you also look at the ages of players they're playing from what I know none of them are playing kids under 20 which is the age of most of what you'd call our promising players. So although some may be playing youngsters, they aren't like ours and some of those clubs have paid in the tens of millions for these kids.

    I agree I'd like to see more of the youngsters but I also trust in our club to manage these kids properly, I remember they days I'd be sat there wondering why people were so desperate for Dom Poleon to play like he was the next big thing so sometimes we don't see what they're seeing on the training ground.

    Look at how Pep handled Foden people were clamouring for him to be sent out on loan, given more first team minutes and he was held off for 18 months and now he is probably the most exciting young player in the country.
    that's just 17 you mentioned under 23s but there is more crystal palace have the Chelsea lad on loan playing and another they bought Southampton think it's the right-back bought from Chelsea playing and other clubs have more. Shak if Ayling was alive he wouldn't get a game and Pat neither if Koch was alive lol. And our academy wasn't so bad as it was producing players like a roller coaster but our greedy owners kept selling them.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    10,524
    Quote Originally Posted by ozleeds View Post
    that's just 17 you mentioned under 23s but there is more crystal palace have the Chelsea lad on loan playing and another they bought Southampton think it's the right-back bought from Chelsea playing and other clubs have more. Shak if Ayling was alive he wouldn't get a game and Pat neither if Koch was alive lol. And our academy wasn't so bad as it was producing players like a roller coaster but our greedy owners kept selling them.
    Not sure I really agree with the loan thing, they can do that because they've hoovered up and pillaged academies for these kids that they're treating as commodities to sell on.

    We don't have that luxury as the youngsters we have that are good are staying to try be a part of our first team. We can't send say Gelhardt out on loan because he will come back without the understanding of how we play, probably not fit enough and have to train him up all over again, these lads are better with us playing U23s, training with the first team and being coached by Bielsa not someone like bloody Warnock or Pulis in the Championship.

    We may have produced a few but I'm talking in comparisons with the clubs your're talking about. Chelsea have hoovered up talent and can now churn out all these kids, we've produced 1 every now and then not 10 or 12 that we can loan out like they're doing.

    And yes you're right if Ayling was fit Shackleton wouldn't play but that is because we are a better team with Ayling than Shackleton.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    3,257
    Quote Originally Posted by joellufcprice View Post
    Difference between us and them is we had a poor academy set up till MB came in. Those players they play have generally had 2 full years out on loan and been in their academy for a long time.

    I am also not sure where you are getting the clubs from who are doing so well and playing a bunch of U21s, if you look at the top 6 you've got:

    Chelsea
    Reece James (21)
    Mason Mount (22)
    Trevor Chalboah (22) few appearances
    Malang Sarr (22) sub
    Hudson-Odoi (21) Sub appearances
    Not sure if you are counting Loftus-Cheek in your thinking but he is 25

    Scum
    Mason Greenwood (20)
    Jadon Sancho (21) Doesn't get a kick and is being horribly managed

    Marabchester City
    Phil Foden (21) 2 years of intense focus with no loan out and now look at how good he is

    Liverpool
    Alexander-Arnold (23) Old
    Curtis Jones (21) Gets games when others are injured

    West Ham
    Ben Johnson (21)
    Declan Rice (22)

    Arsenal
    Smith-Rowe (21)
    Tavares (21)
    Saka (20)
    Odegaard (22)
    Lokonga (22)

    I was going to do likes of Spurs but whats the point they don't play any kids whatsoever

    When you look at that and compare it to our 'good' youngster we have:

    Meslier (21)
    Struijk (22)
    Shackleton (22)
    Summerville (20)
    Gelhardt (19)
    Drameh (19)
    Greenwood (19)
    Cresswell (19)

    Out of those Meslier, Struijk and Shackleton prior to his injury were playing regularly so we have as many 22 or younger players in the squad if not more than most of the teams up the top currently.

    Whilst I agree I'd like to see them more I am also mindful of the fact that though Gelhardt did come on and change the game vs Wolves he has also come on and not had much impact (which is not his fault, because he is a young kid) so that always needs to be kept in mind. Likes of Summerville and Gelhardt need to be given these short opportunities against tired defenses to build their skills and understanding then build up to the first team picture as regular starters.

    When you also look at the ages of players they're playing from what I know none of them are playing kids under 20 which is the age of most of what you'd call our promising players. So although some may be playing youngsters, they aren't like ours and some of those clubs have paid in the tens of millions for these kids.

    I agree I'd like to see more of the youngsters but I also trust in our club to manage these kids properly, I remember they days I'd be sat there wondering why people were so desperate for Dom Poleon to play like he was the next big thing so sometimes we don't see what they're seeing on the training ground.

    Look at how Pep handled Foden people were clamouring for him to be sent out on loan, given more first team minutes and he was held off for 18 months and now he is probably the most exciting young player in the country.
    Completely agree. Just look at our subs bench last week against Leicester. Also no club in the Premier League this season has played more ****agers. We are number 1 there. I just want to see a good left back. Thats where the problem is. Alioski was not properly replaced. Noone has been able to link up with Harrison. Firpo has made quite a few errors that have lead to goals. Sorry for changing subject.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by joellufcprice View Post
    Not sure I really agree with the loan thing, they can do that because they've hoovered up and pillaged academies for these kids that they're treating as commodities to sell on.

    We don't have that luxury as the youngsters we have that are good are staying to try be a part of our first team. We can't send say Gelhardt out on loan because he will come back without the understanding of how we play, probably not fit enough and have to train him up all over again, these lads are better with us playing U23s, training with the first team and being coached by Bielsa not someone like bloody Warnock or Pulis in the Championship.

    We may have produced a few but I'm talking in comparisons with the clubs your're talking about. Chelsea have hoovered up talent and can now churn out all these kids, we've produced 1 every now and then not 10 or 12 that we can loan out like they're doing.

    And yes you're right if Ayling was fit Shackleton wouldn't play but that is because we are a better team with Ayling than Shackleton.
    The Chelsea youth academy was like a factory on an industrial scale for a while - look at the players that went through it that were let go who included

    De Bruyne, Sallah, Erickson and you could say first time around Lukaku

    They used to have about 45 players out on loan until the rules changed so no way you can compare their set up to ours and agree with Joel.

    We seem to be signing players for specific roles and with a view to succession I quite like what we are doing and throwing all the kids in at once is not the answer gradual progression seems sensible and look at Struijk and Shackleton who have been carefully nurtured.

    Can’t wait to see Bate and Allen but only when the coaches think it is the right time.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    3,687
    This is our first season in Premier League 2, Division 1. There has been much investment in getting to here and am sure its important to the clubs strategy to stay there.
    With the very physical demands for the 1st team, we need to be careful on young players development. Some of the fixtures for the U23's fall very close to 1st team matches, and at times U18s have stepped up for them. Its a long intense season, most can see youth is getting its chance albeit slowly for some.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    3,687
    How not to do it... on the list of young players above Andrew Omobamidele of Norwich wasn't included. Anyone watching his displays for Rep of Ireland have seen he has great potential at International level.
    Farke in his wisdom decided to play the young central defender at left back, up against Raph who had a field day with him (despite him scoring their equilizer), just hope the young lad will not let that experience have a negative effect on him.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    5,225
    Quote Originally Posted by whitestomper45 View Post
    How not to do it... on the list of young players above Andrew Omobamidele of Norwich wasn't included. Anyone watching his displays for Rep of Ireland have seen he has great potential at International level.
    Farke in his wisdom decided to play the young central defender at left back, up against Raph who had a field day with him (despite him scoring their equilizer), just hope the young lad will not let that experience have a negative effect on him.
    All I know in the world of sport is to be the best you have to play the best. That's what makes players learn from the best. I was talking about playing full games not cameo appearances like Creswells 1 minute introduction as to how on earth you count that as giving a kid game time. As to us being number 1 in playing ****agers what a lot of crap as naming me how many games they have started and not talking about the regular squad players PAt and Shak?
    I have a feeling most here do not understand how developing a player works. My understanding is you develop them if they are good enough they join the main group if not they are cast aside.
    We are casting them aside even though they are better than what we may be playing. F me spend 25 mil for what? Harrison and James 40 mil there tell me what a couple under 23s cant do that they do given a chance.

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