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Thread: Matchday Thread: Brizzle v Rams

  1. #11
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    But this is what wealthy businessman do, set up companies whereby if they fail there is no great risk to their personal wealth. What Mel has done is no different to what Jamie Oliver did when his restaurant chain went belly up.

    Now in both cases the individuals concerned would be able to say that they have indeed lost a substantial amount of their own money in the process, though of course not to the extent that they still don't have significant personal wealth. Nothing illegal in that of course.

    If HMRC do demand their pound of flesh and that results in the club being liquidated, then regrettably thats life.


    I have to say I'm increasingly twitchy about where this is all leading. For now Derby are heading for league 1 and the rest of the season is an irrelevance.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaledale View Post
    But this is what wealthy businessman do, set up companies whereby if they fail there is no great risk to their personal wealth. What Mel has done is no different to what Jamie Oliver did when his restaurant chain went belly up.

    Now in both cases the individuals concerned would be able to say that they have indeed lost a substantial amount of their own money in the process, though of course not to the extent that they still don't have significant personal wealth. Nothing illegal in that of course.

    If HMRC do demand their pound of flesh and that results in the club being liquidated, then regrettably thats life.


    I have to say I'm increasingly twitchy about where this is all leading. For now Derby are heading for league 1 and the rest of the season is an irrelevance.
    I’m sure you’re right...about what ‘wealthy businessmen do’...but MM is surely slightly different to the likes of Jamie Oliver.

    DCFC is not a business that Morris has set up. To a large extent - not legally I understand - he has been a ‘custodian’ of a club reliant on local support since the 1884. He has, at times, enjoyed the ego trip and we - mere supporters - have, undeniably, enjoyed aspects of the ‘ride’ too...but ultimately, imo, he now has a duty to at least sort out the bill to HMRC that has been incurred on his ‘watch’.
    Last edited by ramAnag; 05-12-2021 at 09:27 AM.

  3. #13
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    Why just HMRC then, rA? All of the debt due to many creditors has been racked up under his custodianship, applying your logic. So is he to be expected to satisfy all the creditors personally?

    He's been doing that since he bought into the club, so what's the point of putting the club into administration if you expect him to fund all the debt?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    Why just HMRC then, rA? All of the debt due to many creditors has been racked up under his custodianship, applying your logic. So is he to be expected to satisfy all the creditors personally?

    He's been doing that since he bought into the club, so what's the point of putting the club into administration if you expect him to fund all the debt?
    Because...and I may be wrong about this, I was under the impression that it is defaulting on what is owed to HMRC that is likely to lead to liquidation.
    As I say...I may be wrong and you’ll certainly know more...but overseeing the club so that relegation via points deduction becomes inevitable is bad enough. Overseeing the club so that it faces liquidation as a result of unpaid tax bills - IF that is the case - is something I would have expected a very wealthy businessman and alleged supporter to want to avoid.

  5. #15
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    OK, HMRC are owed the most, and so that is where most negotiation flexibility might be found, but if you are MSD or one of a whole host of other smaller creditors who will not get 100% paid, how moral does that seem? In a liquidation there is a rule against preference - paying someone in full but not others - I'm not sure how it works in administration though, but my point is you cannot be "moral" towards one creditor because its expedient so to do, whilst leaving other creditors to fend for themselves, can you? Even though they have a slightly more secured debt

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Because...and I may be wrong about this, I was under the impression that it is defaulting on what is owed to HMRC that is likely to lead to liquidation.
    As I say...I may be wrong and you’ll certainly know more...but overseeing the club so that relegation via points deduction becomes inevitable is bad enough. Overseeing the club so that it faces liquidation as a result of unpaid tax bills - IF that is the case - is something I would have expected a very wealthy businessman and alleged supporter to want to avoid.
    rA Phillip Green didn't start BHS, so Morris isn't in a different position, other than of course there is more sentimentality attached to a football club.

    Mel knew that administration would result in a pts deduction, its supposition on my part but I think he knew that the club would fail the FFP rules, but hoped using Covid as an excuse would be accepted by the EFL.

    He could have substantially reduced some debts suck as HMRC prior to calling in the administrators, but didn't and the conclusion to be drawn is he was looking to reduce his losses. Seeing as he must have been aware of the possibility that the club could be liquidated, then his actions indicate he accepts that possibility.

    Any monies he paid now would go to the administrators and be allocated to the preferential creditors as per the law, so the HMRC debt may not be cleared in any case.

    We are now where we are, I understand there is a substantial sum owing to him, but he has said he will waive that.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    OK, HMRC are owed the most, and so that is where most negotiation flexibility might be found, but if you are MSD or one of a whole host of other smaller creditors who will not get 100% paid, how moral does that seem? In a liquidation there is a rule against preference - paying someone in full but not others - I'm not sure how it works in administration though, but my point is you cannot be "moral" towards one creditor because its expedient so to do, whilst leaving other creditors to fend for themselves, can you? Even though they have a slightly more secured debt
    Fair enough...I won’t ‘challenge’ what you say because I suspect that each of you, Swale and AF have forgotten more than I’ve ever known about business and accountancy.
    Given such expertise however...can you see a way out or are we inevitably on course for DCFC to go into liquidation...and what happens then?

    P.S. Not sure about ‘sentimentality’, Swale. I think I’d argue there’s greater ‘social responsibility’ especially from one who claims to be a fan and understand the club’s importance to the area.
    Last edited by ramAnag; 05-12-2021 at 04:25 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Fair enough...I won’t ‘challenge’ what you say because I suspect that each of you, Swale and AF have forgotten more than I’ve ever known about business and accountancy.
    Given such expertise however...can you see a way out or are we inevitably on course for DCFC to go into liquidation...and what happens then?

    P.S. Not sure about ‘sentimentality’, Swale. I think I’d argue there’s greater ‘social responsibility’ especially from one who claims to be a fan and understand the club’s importance to the area.
    I'd disagree with you, because whenever a company goes into liquidation, people suffer, the staff who lose wages and pensions beyond what is protected. The creditors, from small to large, the impact can be devastating and of course on the community and local area, everyone from suppliers, service providers lose the income an active business generates.

    The loss of a football club is different, more based on sentiment, although obviously there are economic losers to.

    If the club goes into liquidation then thats it, the entity we know now ceases to exist.

    It can be reformed as Derby City or AFC Derby or some such name, but would as I understand it have to do what Wimbledon and others have done renter the league at the bottom of the pyramid and start all over again.

    Pray it doesn't happen.

  9. #19
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    If it does happen I might even feel some concern for MM!
    Why??
    Well there will be some very very angry supporters out there!!!

  10. #20
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    If we reform as Derby City, does this mean we get Bradley Johnson back?

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