Matchday Thread: Brizzle v Rams

[Andy_Faber]

You make a valid point rA with respect to the emotional and sentimental value of Derby County as a football club, however, I have to say that GP is explaining clearly the business side of things and the club is just that legally a business and if it fails due to mismanagement, it will cease to exist.

Indeed as a taxpayer I'd have to say GP's sentiments are correct, I don't see how you can argue a special case for Derby, yet bemoan other organisations or individuals escaping paying the tax thats due. I personally object to HMRC being used as a informal loan service to prop up unsustainable management of any football club or any other business.

Yes the impact on people will be great, but then many of those people were perhaps not voicing concerns when the club under Morris' ownership paying large transfer fees for players and equally high wages. Nor might I add were the majority of the players worried about what their salary demands might have on the sustainability of the club.

Regrettably agreeing with GP and Swale, Ive put myself in the chair of the HMRC wallah dealing with this and trying to understand what the benefit to the government coffers is in showing 91 other clubs that if you in essence rob the tax payer, HMRC will let you off. And I’m saying that as someone who will not only not choose another league club to follow if Derby fold, I probably won’t follow football. But how can I expect my love for my club to trump the need for some sort of control?

[ramAnag]

You make a valid point rA with respect to the emotional and sentimental value of Derby County as a football club, however, I have to say that GP is explaining clearly the business side of things and the club is just that legally a business and if it fails due to mismanagement, it will cease to exist.

Indeed as a taxpayer I'd have to say GP's sentiments are correct, I don't see how you can argue a special case for Derby, yet bemoan other organisations or individuals escaping paying the tax thats due. I personally object to HMRC being used as a informal loan service to prop up unsustainable management of any football club or any other business.

Yes the impact on people will be great, but then many of those people were perhaps not voicing concerns when the club under Morris' ownership paying large transfer fees for players and equally high wages. Nor might I add were the majority of the players worried about what their salary demands might have on the sustainability of the club.

I don’t disagree with any of that, Swale. When it comes to knowledge of the business side of things I know and totally accept that GP knows far more than I do.

I also fully accept every aspect of your final paragraph and I share your objections over HMRC being used as an ‘informal loan service’.

Where I differ from GP is that his glib little games of what will we be called, what will our nickname be, what colours will we play in, someone needs to be shown up so why not us etc shows, imo, little respect for those many thousands of local people who are genuinely hurting.

Where I also differ, and I recognise that I will be out of step with others over this one, is that I cannot quite see why the football club is being punished to the extent that it may be rather than those individuals...those temporary custodians...who are responsible for the apparent financial ‘wrongdoing’ that has gone on. Again this may be my ‘ignorance’ showing...but when previous owners have done wrong it seems to have been them that have been punished rather than the club and the local area. I’m puzzled by that.

[StensonRam]

If only the HMRC lived in Derby, we'd be rayt then!

[swaledale]

I don’t disagree with any of that, Swale. When it comes to knowledge of the business side of things I know and totally accept that GP knows far more than I do.

I also fully accept every aspect of your final paragraph and I share your objections over HMRC being used as an ‘informal loan service’.

Where I differ from GP is that his glib little games of what will we be called, what will our nickname be, what colours will we play in, someone needs to be shown up so why not us etc shows, imo, little respect for those many thousands of local people who are genuinely hurting.

Where I also differ, and I recognise that I will be out of step with others over this one, is that I cannot quite see why the football club is being punished to the extent that it may be rather than those individuals...those temporary custodians...who are responsible for the apparent financial ‘wrongdoing’ that has gone on. Again this may be my ‘ignorance’ showing...but when previous owners have done wrong it seems to have been them that have been punished rather than the club and the local area. I’m puzzled by that.

The answer to that is simple rA, other people or companies bought the club from those previous individuals who cocked up and so the issue never arose. Also as things have progressed, the EFL rules have changed, FFP has been introduced with its limits on expenditure and punishment for breaking those rules, plus the HMRC has tired of losing out when a club is put into administration and now has a stronger hand over the issue of any debt owed to it.

So we shall see what happens, if there is a takeover, then the club will survive and it can rebuild from League 1 next season, but there is at the moment a risk of liquidation until or unless a new buyer can be found.

[swaledale]

Regrettably agreeing with GP and Swale, Ive put myself in the chair of the HMRC wallah dealing with this and trying to understand what the benefit to the government coffers is in showing 91 other clubs that if you in essence rob the tax payer, HMRC will let you off. And I’m saying that as someone who will not only not choose another league club to follow if Derby fold, I probably won’t follow football. But how can I expect my love for my club to trump the need for some sort of control?

About the only benefit is if the deal offered on repaying the loan is clearly more than that which can be raised from liquidation and sale of assets. The question then is, what is that figure?

[Geoff Parkstone]

I don’t disagree with any of that, Swale. When it comes to knowledge of the business side of things I know and totally accept that GP knows far more than I do.

I also fully accept every aspect of your final paragraph and I share your objections over HMRC being used as an ‘informal loan service’.

Where I differ from GP is that his glib little games of what will we be called, what will our nickname be, what colours will we play in, someone needs to be shown up so why not us etc shows, imo, little respect for those many thousands of local people who are genuinely hurting.

Where I also differ, and I recognise that I will be out of step with others over this one, is that I cannot quite see why the football club is being punished to the extent that it may be rather than those individuals...those temporary custodians...who are responsible for the apparent financial ‘wrongdoing’ that has gone on. Again this may be my ‘ignorance’ showing...but when previous owners have done wrong it seems to have been them that have been punished rather than the club and the local area. I’m puzzled by that.

I think your difficulty rA is in appreciating that the club is, legally, first and foremost a limited company, and that consideration, in this whole administration- liquidation scenario, is paramount. It is treated no differently to how your local car dealer or pub would be treated if they too were limited companies. The nature of the business isn't relevant, regardless of community utility.

If DCFC was still a member's club, not subject to limitation of liability, the considerations would be different and owners might not walk away "unpunished" as you put it.

So on to the subject of punishment. How has MM gone unpunished? He will have lost a small fortune, his standing in the local community has been destroyed, he could yet face suggestions of personal liability, he could be sanctioned for his conduct by the DTI and the chances of being deemed fit and proper again by the EFL has to be questionable. How's that for starters

As for owners having been punished in the past, not clubs, I'd love to hear an example. I've been trying to think of one, and failed? Macclesfield, Bury in recent times were liquidated and the club's "cancelled". Perhaps where there was demonstrable fraud this may have been the case but I don't recall one in 50 years.

What it all means is that the football business model is so wrong. A model where the community controlled the clubs via shareholdings and managerial control might work better. But that is inconsistent with football as a big business which needs levels of cash beyond the ambit of a community club.

Until you get money out of football, stop it being a business and get back to "jumpers for goalposts" we will always see cases like ours. Then the community gets its clubs back, players regain amateur status and Sky TV ceases to be. In a word, the 50s. Would you prefer that scenario...if so, we have have a point of agreement?

[Andy_Faber]

Perhaps where there was demonstrable fraud this may have been the case but I don't recall one in 50 years.

Just over 50 years, Third Lanark, although that was a bit more complicated (and the numbers infinitely smaller). Sore point still with Mrs F's family who's elder statesmen considered 'The Thirds' to be their second team and worth the odd watch at Cathkin Park when Rangers were away

[ramAnag]

Well reasoned and fair response, GP...and you may be right about my ‘difficulty’. You’ll know a great deal more about the technical/financial aspects. I suppose I’m more concerned with the moral and social implications which you appear to have little time for.

When I spoke about people being punished I was thinking more about the likes of the Three Amigos and Peter Ridsdale who I believe was banned from holding certain office for a number of years. Having said that, I’m not certain they’re entirely comparable and Ridsdale seems to have still, bizarrely, been concerned with a number of football clubs since the LUFC fiasco years ago.

Would I prefer the fifties? No...Farage seems far too fond of them ...and I only began visiting sporting events in 1961. It’d be nice to think we could somehow have the best of both worlds...the relative comfort and safety of today’s stadia alongside a greater community aspect and players who aren’t so socially distanced (not in a Covid sense of the term) from the rest of us...but I doubt it will ever happen again.

[Andy_Faber]

Well reasoned and fair response, GP...and you may be right about my ‘difficulty’. You’ll know a great deal more about the technical/financial aspects. I suppose I’m more concerned with the moral and social implications which you appear to have little time for.

GP will probably say shut up I'm wrong but IMO you're (again) confusing a statement/forecast with an opinion. I read GP's post as an accurate and probably experience-led reflection of the cold-hearted ways of business.

[MadAmster]

The big change, rA, is that, tired of a succession of clubs extracting the urine, the government/HMRC changed the Law to make HMRC preferential creditors entitled in Law to their full pound of flesh. Unfortunately for Derby, we are the first club to be placed in front of the fan ........ there is every chance that HMRC will throw the 5h1t in the general direction of the fan and I hope the club is able to duck.

Not a very nice prospect but that is where the Laws of the land have the club at the moment.