So now we know...

[ramAnag]

Johnson and Sunak both been issued with fixed penalty notices and the former, at least, must now be guilty of misleading Parliament.
Of course they’ll try to blame others but it really won’t stand up. So what now?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Yawn, and shouldn't this be prefaced "off topic"

[MadAmster]

The Teflon Tosser will probably get away with it.

[Andy_Faber]

More important things to worry about at the mo IMO. Let the voters be judge and jury at the next election

[ramAnag]

More important things to worry about at the mo IMO. Let the voters be judge and jury at the next election

There are few things more important than the integrity of a leader, imo, AF.
How can this man represent us at a time of world wide crisis when he is now a proven liar who has misled Parliament? He has no credibility left.
I should indeed have labelled it O/T, GP...for which I apologise...but you can ‘yawn’ all you like...it is, after all the only reaction of those who remain in denial but here’s a little poem for you...with apologies to Rudyard Kipling and thanks to Brian Bilston.
Argue with it if you will...but you won’t because the Johnson supporters have no where left to hide.

IF (BJ version)

If you can keep your job when all around you
Lies ravaged from what it is you’ve done;
If intellect and common sense confound you
And if integrity you have none;
If you can lie and not be tired of lying.
And pretend you act for the public good,
But then leave the people to their dying
And say you did, sadly, all you could.

If you can dream - of nothing more than power;
If you can think - but only of yourself;
If you believe this country’s finest hour
Is when the chosen few can gain more wealth;
If you can flout the law with bluff and bluster
And not care whether you are believed,
Or deny with scorn every single blunder
And not care how many you deceive.

If you can stir up hatred, fear and violence
To create division to suit your ends;
And answer cries for help with silence,
And then laugh about it with your friends:
If you can stretch this country to its limit
Or until it is you’ve had your fun,
Yours is the land and everything that’s in it,
And - as you wished - you’ll be PM, my son.

[swaledale]

There are few things more important than the integrity of a leader, imo, AF.
How can this man represent us at a time of world wide crisis when he is now a proven liar who has misled Parliament? He has no credibility left.
I should indeed have labelled it O/T, GP...for which I apologise...but you can ‘yawn’ all you like...it is, after all the only reaction of those who remain in denial but here’s a little poem for you...with apologies to Rudyard Kipling and thanks to Brian Bilston.
Argue with it if you will...but you won’t because the Johnson supporters have no where left to hide.

IF (BJ version)

If you can keep your job when all around you
Lies ravaged from what it is you’ve done;
If intellect and common sense confound you
And if integrity you have none;
If you can lie and not be tired of lying.
And pretend you act for the public good,
But then leave the people to their dying
And say you did, sadly, all you could.

If you can dream - of nothing more than power;
If you can think - but only of yourself;
If you believe this country’s finest hour
Is when the chosen few can gain more wealth;
If you can flout the law with bluff and bluster
And not care whether you are believed,
Or deny with scorn every single blunder
And not care how many you deceive.

If you can stir up hatred, fear and violence
To create division to suit your ends;
And answer cries for help with silence,
And then laugh about it with your friends:
If you can stretch this country to its limit
Or until it is you’ve had your fun,
Yours is the land and everything that’s in it,
And - as you wished - you’ll be PM, my son.

Ah well rA, there used be a time, that whenever a politician was caught lying/misleading parliament and the electorate, they would do the decent thing and resign, or if they didn't their party would dispense with his/her services.

Now I don't believe that these days some politicians are any greater charlatans than the shower in government today, its just this lot today actually don't ahve any sense of moral or proper behaviour!

I'm really not sure the "there are more important things to deal with" or "we can't change leader as because of the war in Ukraine" arguments stand scrutiny, other than those wanting to give Johnson a free pass.

After all countries, such as Hungary and France are still holding elections and nobody has suggested that these should be paused until the war in Ukraine has ended.

For one thing, when will it end? it could rumble on for years.

For a second, Johnson resigning wouldn't affect what the UK does one iota, Johnson is doing a lot of posturing, but the real strategy and actual work is being done by people who will still be there doing it if he left tomorrow.

One final thing though, if we in Western Europe are serious about democracy, then what could be a clearer demonstration to Russia and its citizens, that leaders are called to account in a true democracy than one who has been found to have acted improperly resigns or is removed?

That for me is the important principle, regrettably, it seems there is a sizeable minority in this country who actually don't care much for democracy, they would be quite happy with a benevolent authoritarian figure who appears to act strong.

At least they would unless of course there were negative impacts upon them.

In short he should either resign or be removed. If neither happens will confirm what has been apparent for some time now, Johnson has no sense of honour or morals and the Tory party is now ruled by people who don't have these qualities either.

[ramAnag]

Ah well rA, there used be a time, that whenever a politician was caught lying/misleading parliament and the electorate, they would do the decent thing and resign, or if they didn't their party would dispense with his/her services.

Now I don't believe that these days some politicians are any greater charlatans than the shower in government today, its just this lot today actually don't ahve any sense of moral or proper behaviour!

I'm really not sure the "there are more important things to deal with" or "we can't change leader as because of the war in Ukraine" arguments stand scrutiny, other than those wanting to give Johnson a free pass.

After all countries, such as Hungary and France are still holding elections and nobody has suggested that these should be paused until the war in Ukraine has ended.

For one thing, when will it end? it could rumble on for years.

For a second, Johnson resigning wouldn't affect what the UK does one iota, Johnson is doing a lot of posturing, but the real strategy and actual work is being done by people who will still be there doing it if he left tomorrow.

One final thing though, if we in Western Europe are serious about democracy, then what could be a clearer demonstration to Russia and its citizens, that leaders are called to account in a true democracy than one who has been found to have acted improperly resigns or is removed?

That for me is the important principle, regrettably, it seems there is a sizeable minority in this country who actually don't care much for democracy, they would be quite happy with a benevolent authoritarian figure who appears to act strong.

At least they would unless of course there were negative impacts upon them.

In short he should either resign or be removed. If neither happens will confirm what has been apparent for some time now, Johnson has no sense of honour or morals and the Tory party is now ruled by people who don't have these qualities either.

Not for the first time I couldn’t agree more.

There can be no doubt now that Johnson is unfit to lead and the pitiful ‘nobody told me’ excuse makes that abundantly clear. If he needs an explanation of the meaning of his own rules how can we possibly have faith in the man to deal with the complexities of Ukraine, Brexit, fuel shortages etc.

I’m just shocked that posters such as AF and GP, who I may regularly disagree with but who are essentially decent and intelligent, still seek to excuse the utterly indefensible.

[Andy_Faber]

Not for the first time I couldn’t agree more.

There can be no doubt now that Johnson is unfit to lead and the pitiful ‘nobody told me’ excuse makes that abundantly clear. If he needs an explanation of the meaning of his own rules how can we possibly have faith in the man to deal with the complexities of Ukraine, Brexit, fuel shortages etc.

I’m just shocked that posters such as AF and GP, who I may regularly disagree with but who are essentially decent and intelligent, still seek to excuse the utterly indefensible.

I'm not trying to defend anything, but if you agree with Swale you are agreeing with a contradiction - Swale states

'what could be a clearer demonstration to Russia and its citizens, that leaders are called to account in a true democracy' which is fair enough. I agree. But we live in a country where the democracy is exercised by a set of rules we all know, NOT by a very vocal minority, of which you two are a faction, clamouring for resignations at the slightest excuse (agreed this isn't a'slight excuse' but IMO the same applies). The predictable knee-jerk 'his/her position is untenable' mantra after every discretion in my opinion actually weakens the case for change, it just becomes a bit boring - leaving Labour aside for a mo, hasn't Ed Davey for instance got better policies that calling for ministers' heads all the time?

so, don't cherish the democracy which allows you to vote for change once in a while yet demand mob rule when it suits

Now, if its found that there's a LAW that makes misleading partliament a sackable offence, fair do's. That's the law. Otherwise, sit it out.

[ramAnag]

I'm not trying to defend anything, but if you agree with Swale you are agreeing with a contradiction - Swale states

'what could be a clearer demonstration to Russia and its citizens, that leaders are called to account in a true democracy' which is fair enough. I agree. But we live in a country where the democracy is exercised by a set of rules we all know, NOT by a very vocal minority, of which you two are a faction, clamouring for resignations at the slightest excuse (agreed this isn't a'slight excuse' but IMO the same applies). The predictable knee-jerk 'his/her position is untenable' mantra after every discretion in my opinion actually weakens the case for change, it just becomes a bit boring - leaving Labour aside for a mo, hasn't Ed Davey for instance got better policies that calling for ministers' heads all the time?

so, don't cherish the democracy which allows you to vote for change once in a while yet demand mob rule when it suits

Now, if its found that there's a LAW that makes misleading partliament a sackable offence, fair do's. That's the law. Otherwise, sit it out.

It’s really not about a ‘very vocal minority’, Andy. This is about the question of whether or not a serial liar is a fit and proper person to run the country...and that’s not an example of a ‘slightest excuse’.

As for Swale’s alleged contradiction...is it not a contradiction to write ‘clamouring for resignations at the slightest excuse (agreed this isn’t a ‘slight excuse’ but imo the same applies...) a much more obvious contradiction?

[Andy_Faber]

It’s really not about a ‘very vocal minority’, Andy. This is about the question of whether or not a serial liar is a fit and proper person to run the country...and that’s not an example of a ‘slightest excuse’.

As for Swale’s alleged contradiction...is it not a contradiction to write ‘clamouring for resignations at the slightest excuse (agreed this isn’t a ‘slight excuse’ but imo the same applies...) a much more obvious contradiction?

No its not an obvious contradiction, its an observation along the lines of the boy who cried wolf. The act of repeatedly making the same point/calling for the same outcome is self-defeating after a while, its human nature for the public in receiving such a message to become numbed to any impact the message had originally, and in this instance it makes no difference if its you, Swale, Ed Davey, Mark Drakeford or whoever , 'you' haven't picked your moment well and 'you' stand no chance of removing the buffoon for this or possibly even greater misdemeanours, you've made him shockproof I'm afraid. As I said, sit it out.