O/T Bending the knee farce

[ramAnag]

Tbh I can’t actually find a reference to ALL the BLM aims that Tricky describes and I don’t think that’s the crux of the issue anyway.

I don’t doubt that there is some degree of unrealistic idealism/dogmatism amongst those most involved in the BLM cause but, as I’ve already asserted, there will always be a need for a reactive response so long as racism remains so prevalent within society.

Calling it a ‘farce’, as was done in the original post is, imo, wrong. It’s actually a tragedy...a tragedy that we still have to spend time dealing with such issues in 2022 and I don’t recognise the ‘brainwashing’ you speak of.

Ultimately, seeking to eradicate racism is always going to be more ‘laudible’ than defending those who seek to humiliate those prepared to take a stance against it...imo.

[Trickytreesreds]

Tbh I can’t actually find a reference to ALL the BLM aims that Tricky describes and I don’t think that’s the crux of the issue anyway.

I don’t doubt that there is some degree of unrealistic idealism/dogmatism amongst those most involved in the BLM cause but, as I’ve already asserted, there will always be a need for a reactive response so long as racism remains so prevalent within society.

Calling it a ‘farce’, as was done in the original post is, imo, wrong. It’s actually a tragedy...a tragedy that we still have to spend time dealing with such issues in 2022 and I don’t recognise the ‘brainwashing’ you speak of.

Ultimately, seeking to eradicate racism is always going to be more ‘laudible’ than defending those who seek to humiliate those prepared to take a stance against it...imo.

Thinly disguised pop at me. But you never try very hard do you when it conflicts you.

BLM activists have made no secret of their views. “When we started Black Lives Matter, it wasn’t solely about police brutality and extrajudicial killing,” one of BLM’s three co-founders, Opal Tometi, confessed to The New Yorker. The issue was just “a spark point” to begin “calling for the defunding of police, a moratorium on rent, a moratorium on mortgages and utilities” and issuing “demands” relating to “housing and education and health-care systems.” Reparations through racial socialism: The M4BL platform, which BLM endorses, states, “We demand reparations for past and continuing harms,” including both “corporate and government reparations” for a litany of ills that include “food apartheid” and “racialized capitalism.” Government reparations will take “the form” of “a guaranteed minimum livable income for all Black people.” M4BL/BLM’s “universal health care” policy mandates that “wealthy residents pay for a portion of their services while low-income and working class folks receive free services.” The new system will be modeled on France or Germany. Black Americans will also receive government-funded “control of food sources, housing and land.” Robust reparations programs will include “full and free access for all Black people (including undocumented and currently and formerly incarcerated people) to lifetime education” at any university, community college, or technical education facility, as well as “retroactive forgiveness of student loans.” Defunding the police and ending prisons: BLM’s best-known demand is to “defund the police.” M4BL also proposes an “end” to arrests of any black students, and “an end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them.” House arrest would be promoted equally with imprisonment. The government would also expand Pell grant funding to educate inmates and “[a]llow access to gender affirming surgeries” in penitentiaries at taxpayers’ expense. tart a “global liberation movement” to overthrow capitalism: “The interlinked systems of white supremacy, imperialism, capitalism and patriarchy shape the violence we face,” the M4BL/BLM platform states. “As oppressed people living in the US, the belly of global empire, we are in a critical position to build the necessary connections for a global liberation movement. Until we are able to overturn US imperialism, capitalism and white supremacy, our brothers and sisters around the world will continue to live in chains.” Political movement- hijacked by good intentions In the mean time, they buy themselves mansions and award themselves gross salaries, Socialism at it finest

[ramAnag]

Okay...I’ll temporarily break my habit of the last few months during which I haven’t ‘debated’ with you over anything political because it invariably degenerates into futile point scoring and political name calling.

There is no ‘thinly disguised pop’ at you. I mentioned you by name.

I looked, for the first time, at the BLM (UK) page that I thought you referred to and as I acknowledged there is is some idealised and dogmatic comment on there. Having said that, and has already been pointed out in another intelligent and observant post, it is sometimes difficult for the predominantly (possibly exclusively) white and largely middle class ‘group’ that makes up this forum to comprehend the implications of both casual and more organised racism.

I do have to wonder what your motivation is in resurrecting this topic. Mine, in responding, is simply this...we should always stand against racism in all its forms. It is a particularly pernicious form of bullying nothing more...nothing less...and time is always better spent opposing racism than defending the minority of football supporting boo boys.

To help you understand my position further...I am not a monarchist and never ever sing the National Anthem. When I was growing up the Anthem was everywhere...the end of every trip to the cinema...the last thing heard at night on TV etc. Its playing was so ubiquitous (brainwashing AF?) it became meaningless, which may well be where ‘taking the knee’ is going...but my point is...although I would never actually join in the National Anthem neither would I boo it.

So...three questions for you, one or two already touched on.

1) What do you think the motivation behind those who boo the practice of ‘bending the knee’ actually is?
2) Why do you think such behaviour, both the booing/online abuse of black players and the booing of ‘taking the knee’, is largely confined to football and not seen at other sporting events?
3) Why is it unreasonable to continue demonstrating opposition to racism when there is clearly a vociferous minority of people throughout the UK and Europe who believe it to be acceptable to indulge in such bigotry and prejudice?

[Trickytreesreds]

To best of my interpretation.

1. Folks are sick to death of it being rammed down their throats. BLM was the latest craze, among the protest generation.
It is viewed as, you must feel guilt/anger/ acceptance that you are the cause of all the USA based problems that started this.
We have been on an anti racism campaign for sometime. Apart from obvious clubs like Milwall, I think it has come a very long way.
Generations of past bias have been set aside. BLM organisers seem to want some sort of vendetta, of guilt by heritage imposing.
They are saying, enough is enough. We don't condone racism, but we aint having the card imposed on us evry game.
A lot od people feel as I do, it has no place in sport does politics.
( I don't know how much you read Facebook, but there are loads of pages of Palestinian athletes reusing to participate in event stages, when they come up against a Jew. They seem to think this is a good thing for sport, I don't )

2. Booing of bending the knee- see above
Abuse on line or even a game, is against the law. Football I'm afraid has been a predominant working class sport and any predjudices come from the streets they grew up in. You can hardly class rugby/cricket in the same bracket, as to pardon the pun. They are usually the sports, the private class of schools specialise in and it hardly has the same following as a result. For every supporter that attends a game, there must be 100 who watch it on tv or online, giving their allegience to a club. The pool for sucking in the nob heads gets bigger.
Again I'll say it. This will change over the generations and through schools. The influx of migration has come as a shock to the country for the last 50 years. It will die out as acceptance is reached.
3. It isn't unreasonable at all.
We were doing it before, but the BLM knee position came from the USA- by a socialist anarchy movement, with aims way different from what you want them to believe.
Folks take no joy from the police brutality in the states, but is it that way here?
They have seen the gloryfication of a drug riddled violent criminal. They have seen the organisers of BLM cream money off the top for themselves and family. Money donated in good faith.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/rebecc...-down-n2590130
https://nypost.com/2021/04/10/marxis...zy-la-enclave/

The BLM stance is the thing that wants binning, not the anti racism
As for Europe. Do you really believe that bending the knee in Poland/Hungary/ Slovakia/Romania etc is going to change anything? They are predominantly white countries, with no interest in migration coming in.
After years of soviet control and doctrination, they are as far removed from integration as Hitler was from a Sukkot festival.
Thet are not going to change any time soon and ramming their faces in it, aggrevates them even more.

I've told you before RA. I admire your beliefs and convictions.
I find them very naive though and detatched from what's happening in the world.
One day, you'll get your dream, but you can't get everyone to comply and you certainly cannot get countries to comply that don't want to.

In short, the message you want to send is correct. But BLM movement has no place here.
Its political/divisive/destructive and powder keg.
But thats my side of the fence. You obviously won't agree, so good luck in your quest.

[ramAnag]

To best of my interpretation.

1. Folks are sick to death of it being rammed down their throats. BLM was the latest craze, among the protest generation.
It is viewed as, you must feel guilt/anger/ acceptance that you are the cause of all the USA based problems that started this.
We have been on an anti racism campaign for sometime. Apart from obvious clubs like Milwall, I think it has come a very long way.
Generations of past bias have been set aside. BLM organisers seem to want some sort of vendetta, of guilt by heritage imposing.
They are saying, enough is enough. We don't condone racism, but we aint having the card imposed on us evry game.
A lot od people feel as I do, it has no place in sport does politics.
( I don't know how much you read Facebook, but there are loads of pages of Palestinian athletes reusing to participate in event stages, when they come up against a Jew. They seem to think this is a good thing for sport, I don't )

2. Booing of bending the knee- see above
Abuse on line or even a game, is against the law. Football I'm afraid has been a predominant working class sport and any predjudices come from the streets they grew up in. You can hardly class rugby/cricket in the same bracket, as to pardon the pun. They are usually the sports, the private class of schools specialise in and it hardly has the same following as a result. For every supporter that attends a game, there must be 100 who watch it on tv or online, giving their allegience to a club. The pool for sucking in the nob heads gets bigger.
Again I'll say it. This will change over the generations and through schools. The influx of migration has come as a shock to the country for the last 50 years. It will die out as acceptance is reached.
3. It isn't unreasonable at all.
We were doing it before, but the BLM knee position came from the USA- by a socialist anarchy movement, with aims way different from what you want them to believe.
Folks take no joy from the police brutality in the states, but is it that way here?
They have seen the gloryfication of a drug riddled violent criminal. They have seen the organisers of BLM cream money off the top for themselves and family. Money donated in good faith.
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/rebecc...-down-n2590130
https://nypost.com/2021/04/10/marxis...zy-la-enclave/

The BLM stance is the thing that wants binning, not the anti racism
As for Europe. Do you really believe that bending the knee in Poland/Hungary/ Slovakia/Romania etc is going to change anything? They are predominantly white countries, with no interest in migration coming in.
After years of soviet control and doctrination, they are as far removed from integration as Hitler was from a Sukkot festival.
Thet are not going to change any time soon and ramming their faces in it, aggrevates them even more.

I've told you before RA. I admire your beliefs and convictions.
I find them very naive though and detatched from what's happening in the world.
One day, you'll get your dream, but you can't get everyone to comply and you certainly cannot get countries to comply that don't want to.

In short, the message you want to send is correct. But BLM movement has no place here.
Its political/divisive/destructive and powder keg.
But thats my side of the fence. You obviously won't agree, so good luck in your quest.

Hmmm...bit more of a rant than an answer there Tricky.

Not really sure what you’re saying other than racism is a product of being ‘working class’ and less well/expensively educated, which seems very debatable.

I’m not sure what you’re sick of having ‘rammed down your throat’ either...though I’m fairly certain it doesn’t compare with the abuse that black footballers regularly suffer as a result of a) making a mistake and b) just being black.

I’m glad that you say you agree with my anti-racist message...I think that’s all the vast majority of non jeering football supporters want and I suspect that I’m not really being naive at all...indeed the most naive comment of the week award must go to you with your earlier assertion that ‘sport shouldn’t be used for political gain’.

[Trickytreesreds]

Disagree RA, sport get hijacked in many ways for political gain.
From Olympians to amateur runners.

You never commented on anything I raised though, other than your stance.

BLM-
1. Defund the police
2. Abolish capitalism
3. Abandon western values

Exactly how they anything to do with footballers?

Also, no comment I see on the BLM organisers, raping the funds for expensive house and salaries.
One of the women founders brother, was hired as head of security on 800k a year?
Eactly how does this relate to racism and equality?
It looks like a hijack to me of money and a revolutionists behaviour, hiding behind a sensitive issue.

Like I said, you have to seperate your feelings from the BLM farce.

[MadAmster]

Rugby and cricket not working class sports? I'd take issue with that TTR.

My owd fella worked nights as a GPO telephonist. 2 days a week at Bass Brewery and tended 2 rich folks' gardens. Mam cleaned 4 mornings a week at 2 posh houses (each house 2 mornings). At one of the houses I cleaned their 2 cars every Saturday morning. We just about scraped by. I was fortunate enough to ace my 11+ and went to the Grammar School. Played Rugby and Cricket there. The local Secondary Schools played football in Winter and Cricket in the Summer. They tended to be good at football but not so hot at Cricket. Most of my fellow pupils were also working class although the Secondary bods told us we were snobs. Right through Junior school we played games of what could easily become 20 a side football on the green at the bottom of our road which was in a Council Estate. 11+ came and went, we all left junior school and the mass football and cricket games continued right through the summer. Then the holidays ended and we all poddled off to our new schools. First day, after dinner I walked down to the green for the usual 20 a side. I and a few others weren't allowed to play as we were now snobs...... I always wondered who the real snobs were, we Grammar School lads or the Secondary lads?

I have no idea why the secondary lads weren't much cop at Cricket. Did we GS bods get better coaching? It's weird. Quite a few of us played football out of school and we had a couple have trials although nobody got a contract offer. 2 years below me at GS there was a lad, he captained England U15s at rugby. A year later his younger brother repeated the feat. The elder one went on to play for Ipswich Town and England at football. Russell Osman. His dad was a pub landlord. Not posh either.

[ramAnag]

Disagree RA, sport get hijacked in many ways for political gain.
From Olympians to amateur runners.

You never commented on anything I raised though, other than your stance.

BLM-
1. Defund the police
2. Abolish capitalism
3. Abandon western values

Exactly how they anything to do with footballers?

Also, no comment I see on the BLM organisers, raping the funds for expensive house and salaries.
One of the women founders brother, was hired as head of security on 800k a year?
Eactly how does this relate to racism and equality?
It looks like a hijack to me of money and a revolutionists behaviour, hiding behind a sensitive issue.

Like I said, you have to seperate your feelings from the BLM farce.

Taking the knee is a symbolic gesture against racism, Tricky.

It doesn’t imply complete adherence to the BLM Movement which I have already accepted contains aspects of idealistic and dogmatic thought that I don’t agree with.

Your thread is entitled ‘Bending the knee farce’ NOT ‘The Rights and Wrongs of the BLM Cause’ although I accept that the latter probably better befits your agenda.

[swaledale]

Hmmm...bit more of a rant than an answer there Tricky.

Not really sure what you’re saying other than racism is a product of being ‘working class’ and less well/expensively educated, which seems very debatable.

I’m not sure what you’re sick of having ‘rammed down your throat’ either...though I’m fairly certain it doesn’t compare with the abuse that black footballers regularly suffer as a result of a) making a mistake and b) just being black.

I’m glad that you say you agree with my anti-racist message...I think that’s all the vast majority of non jeering football supporters want and I suspect that I’m not really being naive at all...indeed the most naive comment of the week award must go to you with your earlier assertion that ‘sport shouldn’t be used for political gain’.

I'm afraid rA you should have done as I ahve and refrain from reading or interacting with this utter twa@t! I had thought nobody was going to react to his provocative and pointless thread but no some did.

I do love how people, mostly white, often male and quite often able bodied, get on their high horse and moan about having stuff "shoved down their throats"! Which is code for shut the **** up because having black/ coloured people, women, disabled people who have suffered systemic discrimination for many decades talk about it, makes me uncomfortable and anyway they have nothing to complain about!!

All this whataboutery concerning the BLM movement is just a sideshow - for a start England players have said quite clearly their gesture is not support of that movement but a way of drawing attention to the fact that despite the Neanderthal wailings of morons like Thicky, racism is still rampant.


Yes by all means point out issues with some of the people involved in an organisation, but don't use that as a way of saying, lets drop all this now its not needed. Talk to a few ethnic, gay, disabled people or women and only a complete bell end would deny that there still serious issues of prejudice and discrimination which do need talking about, do need highlighting and if it makes little ole white boyz uncomfortable well **** em!!

[ramAnag]

Take your point, Swale though tbf my initial response to this particular thread was following Andy’s observation and question and the ‘interaction’ with TTR did remain civil.

Coincidentally I was watching Michael Holding at lunchtime today...hardly an example of a militant, left wing extremist but a man I have looked up to both as a sportsman and a commentator for years.
If anyone really wants to understand why taking the knee remains important I’d suggest they listen to Michael’s articulate and emotional explanation. He says it all.