O/T. To misquote Henry II...

[ramAnag]

it's not 'electorate' rA, ts population, switch off the political bit of your brain for a few minutes if such a switch exists, it is the weekend after all

Two anecdotes/examples, one against mypoint, one for it, and making the assumption if you will that in one area we do agree, there are too many 'unenlightened' (my description)/'thick' (described by others) people around

This am, we wake up to the news about Salman Rushdie. Mrs F, less aware of the issue as a whole than me (she was 11 when Satanic verses was published), sought a bit of clarification, and I gave it as the immediate scenes were broadcast. Then the following piece (it was on BBC) gave a thorough report including context, history, the works, and in some areas enlightening both of us. Tick In the box

However: earlier this year I was regularly giving a group of early working age lads a lift to/from work most days and insisted we listened to R4 PM on the way home (hip-hop and drill on the way in, wow...), and a couple of them took a bit of an interest. One thing that confused them, and its an assumption that BBC continue to make, is that they heard reference to Moscow did this, Moscow did that, or Washington did this, Washington did that, and at other times the reference was to Russia and USA. This applied to other countries too, although (I noticed since, not to Australia or Brasil for instance). And it genuinely confused them, there was a piece of Iceland and 'Iceland' and 'Reijkavic' were used seemingly at random, and the guys thought they were two places. Now you and I know the truth full well, and you MAY argue that 'Reijkavic is the capital of Iceland' is for a newscast elsewhere, but its a SMALL example of where 'the media' ( used the BBC because despite it all its y usual news source) utterly miss a trick by treating the plebicite like thay all went to a redbrick uni. Ramshank amusingly hijacked the G7 thing yesterday, but I'm not 100% sure what the purpose of the G7 is, my guess is 'Edna' and my guys in the van haven't got a clue, yet I've NEVER heard any explanation/definition/context offered in the media.

Maybe my expectations are too high

Okay...population/electorate...sewage/leaks...the devil is in the detail, AF.

I said ‘electorate’ rather than population because it is the electorate who decide and who the media seek to influence but I guess it doesn’t really matter that much.

The point I’m trying to raise with you is that for years you have castigated Swale, and to a lesser extent me because I’m a little more polite, for criticising the electorate (and yes I do mean the ‘electorate’) for being, in Swale’s words, ‘thick’. You have repeatedly accused Swale and I of being undemocratic and having no respect for democracy over the outcome of the Referendum and, ultimately, Brexit.

Yet here you are, quite accurately in my opinion, describing individuals - whether that be your imaginary Edna or your ‘early working age lads’ - as lacking in awareness...of political ignorance...of having very limited knowledge of current affairs.

To my mind you can’t have it both ways. On the one hand Swale and I are, according to you, out of order and undemocratic for criticising the Referendum decision...on the other you are suddenly quite happy to portray the electorate as somewhat politically dim witted and ignorant. Yet if a decision as significant and complex as the Brexit one was reached by people who, as you suggest, have never heard of the G7 and can’t ‘break’ your Moscow/Washington/Reykjavik code...but think that Johnson and Farage were okay because they like a pint and don’t have any time for immigrants, then isn’t that a little ridiculous?

Let me know when you’ve climbed off that fence...I’ve got a football match to go to.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Yawn, reset, reload, yawn......

[Trickytreesreds]

Which immigrants are we on about now, the 40% desperate, poor Albanians fleeing persecution and seeking sactuary?
Yes lets not bother with details again, that might be racist and right wing.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derison or contempt. Then freedom of thought becomes impossible"
Salman Rushdie

[MadAmster]

Which immigrants are we on about now, the 40% desperate, poor Albanians fleeing persecution and seeking sactuary?
Yes lets not bother with details again, that might be racist and right wing.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derison or contempt. Then freedom of thought becomes impossible"
Salman Rushdie

.... and "they" finally got to him yesterday. I hope he survives and comes back stronger.

[Trickytreesreds]

.... and "they" finally got to him yesterday. I hope he survives and comes back stronger.

So do I, but when shouts of Islamophobia/cancelling/ outrage doesn't work. This was the next step.

There is a heavy movement, to not being allowed to say your opinion in this country in case you cause offence. It is endorsed by the powers that be and the police.
Unfortunately, it hits the stuoidity levels of Rotherham and like this poor old git found out.

His crime? He reposted someone elses post on Facebook?
I feel so proud sometimes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p6zi_IIdxs

[ramAnag]

.... and "they" finally got to him yesterday. I hope he survives and comes back stronger.

Me too...but what Salman Rushdie has to do with this thread I have no idea...don’t recall ever in my life declaring ‘a set of ideas should be immune from criticism, satire, derision or contempt’...although I’ve certainly received plenty of the latter two from you TTR.

[Andy_Faber]

Okay...population/electorate...sewage/leaks...the devil is in the detail, AF.

Precisely, the detal involves the subject in the round, not a segment of it that suits a point of view/political leaning, I just aimed to put that right, as usual you try some obscure line of reasoning to refute it. Its a tactic you use a lot

The point I’m trying to raise with you is that for years you have castigated Swale, and to a lesser extent me because I’m a little more polite, for criticising the electorate (and yes I do mean the ‘electorate’) for being, in Swale’s words, ‘thick’. You have repeatedly accused Swale and I of being undemocratic and having no respect for democracy over the outcome of the Referendum and, ultimately, Brexit.

Not true, I've 'castigated' Mr potty mouth for his disdain/hatred of the 17m (amongst, over time, almost all of the population of the UK), my disagreement with you has been that you refused to accept the result of a democratically held, legal referendum, and even refused to accept that sucking it upand making the best of the decision was a valid reaction from Remainers (such as GP and myself, of those not bored off the thread/forum)

So two different people, two different things. We get enough of Swale and you being 'two peas in the same pod' without you joining in

Yet here you are, quite accurately in my opinion, describing individuals - whether that be your imaginary Edna or your ‘early working age lads’ - as lacking in awareness...of political ignorance...of having very limited knowledge of current affairs.

To my mind you can’t have it both ways. On the one hand Swale and I are, according to you, out of order and undemocratic for criticising the Referendum decision...on the other you are suddenly quite happy to portray the electorate as somewhat politically dim witted and ignorant. Yet if a decision as significant and complex as the Brexit one was reached by people who, as you suggest, have never heard of the G7 and can’t ‘break’ your Moscow/Washington/Reykjavik code...but think that Johnson and Farage were okay because they like a pint and don’t have any time for immigrants, then isn’t that a little ridiculous?

I don't think either of them are 'OK', nor in fact most of the senior people on either side of the Brexit argument, but going back to (what I think was) the start of this discussion, I think The Media could have stood back, let the polticians act as Charlie Caroli and Ali Bongo rolled into one and taken a thought-through, unbiased, clear to understand approach to a) Brexit, and c) Energy/Cost Of Living. I've missed b) because by and large The Media and those with genuine insight (ie not the politicians) did an OK job IMO

Let me know when you’ve climbed off that fence...I’ve got a football match to go to.

Dont confuse fence sitting with having a well developed vie on things which can evolve over time (be it right or wrong in your eyes)

[ramAnag]

Precisely, the detal involves the subject in the round, not a segment of it that suits a point of view/political leaning, I just aimed to put that right, as usual you try some obscure line of reasoning to refute it. Its a tactic you use a lot



Not true, I've 'castigated' Mr potty mouth for his disdain/hatred of the 17m (amongst, over time, almost all of the population of the UK), my disagreement with you has been that you refused to accept the result of a democratically held, legal referendum, and even refused to accept that sucking it upand making the best of the decision was a valid reaction from Remainers (such as GP and myself, of those not bored off the thread/forum)

So two different people, two different things. We get enough of Swale and you being 'two peas in the same pod' without you joining in


I don't think either of them are 'OK', nor in fact most of the senior people on either side of the Brexit argument, but going back to (what I think was) the start of this discussion, I think The Media could have stood back, let the polticians act as Charlie Caroli and Ali Bongo rolled into one and taken a thought-through, unbiased, clear to understand approach to a) Brexit, and c) Energy/Cost Of Living. I've missed b) because by and large The Media and those with genuine insight (ie not the politicians) did an OK job IMO



Dont confuse fence sitting with having a well developed vie on things which can evolve over time (be it right or wrong in your eyes)

‘Obscure line of reasoning’? Please explain.

We’ve done this dance before. I’ve had no choice but to accept Brexit. Doesn’t mean I have to like it or cease challenging its stupidity. For me, three years in, there are no advantages.

Not really sure of what you mean in that paragraph but if you’re suggesting a need for a more objectively informed electorate I’m not arguing.

I don’t and I don’t think you have, but thanks for at least replying and not wandering entirely off topic into Salman Rushdie territory. Appreciated.

[Andy_Faber]

‘Obscure line of reasoning’? Please explain.

We’ve done this dance before. I’ve had no choice but to accept Brexit. Doesn’t mean I have to like it or cease challenging its stupidity. For me, three years in, there are no advantages.

Not really sure of what you mean in that paragraph but if you’re suggesting a need for a more objectively informed electorate I’m not arguing.

I don’t and I don’t think you have, but thanks for at least replying and not wandering entirely off topic into Salman Rushdie territory. Appreciated.

I wasn't entirely sure on that one either although I may have sparked it, but as I think you realised, the subject matter, distressing as itis, was incidental to my point of media standards (in that case IMO good)

[Trickytreesreds]

GP, is this you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77kCUlOsr6c