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Thread: That case in fife

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Returnofrros View Post
    That's a great way of putting it.......it's how I see foodbanks etc as well....( I know you prob disagree)......I genuinely distinguish between those that have made themselves helpless and dependent and those who have zero choice in the matter.

    Someone I know was recently prescribed a drug that they were told they "were fortunate to get as it's very expensive".....luckily I was there when this was said and asked the nurse if methadone prescriptions were "expensive"....just got a look but she will never say that when I'm there again or will just get it thrown back.

    To me lucky is having never paid tax national insurance or partook in society and are getting a state funded fix.

    The methadone programme hasn't worked but the answer seems to be let them inject heroin in a "safe environment"..... completely the wrong message and the zombification of another generation will start.
    The answer is to treat it as a health problem not a criminal one. Addicts avoid doctors and dentists,they don't access support other than the methadone,and the only thing that methadone does is rot teeth and make chemists and drug companies rich.

    There are better ways. A drug called bupranorphine acts like heroine,it also makes you violently ill if you continue with heroine. The treatment is to get you hooked on that,then get you off it,the withdrawals are not nearly as severe. It is too expensive tho. Another way is to treat with medical grade heroine, while in a secure environment,along with support from pretty much every service. This is usually done by gradually lowering the dose,until the addict is clean. They are then relocated,to somewhere they don't know anyone to get gear from.

    That method is estimated to have possible savings of over a billion a year,with crimes like shoplifting and breaking and entering falling,but politically,I think would be a no-go

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Returnofrros View Post
    That's a great way of putting it.......it's how I see foodbanks etc as well....( I know you prob disagree)......I genuinely distinguish between those that have made themselves helpless and dependent and those who have zero choice in the matter.

    Someone I know was recently prescribed a drug that they were told they "were fortunate to get as it's very expensive".....luckily I was there when this was said and asked the nurse if methadone prescriptions were "expensive"....just got a look but she will never say that when I'm there again or will just get it thrown back.

    To me lucky is having never paid tax national insurance or partook in society and are getting a state funded fix.

    The methadone programme hasn't worked but the answer seems to be let them inject heroin in a "safe environment"..... completely the wrong message and the zombification of another generation will start.
    Agree that our social services seem to be aimed at keeping people in the system rather than getting them back on their feet and looking after themselves. Had a very well informed talk at our Rotary Club by someone who had to deal with drug addiction. I was surprised y his support for the methadone support for addicts. Apparently the problem is not the methadone but the lack of rigorous care packages to help addicts to get out of the system. Nobody thinks that allowing addicts to live on a methadone programme is acceptable but the cost to the state/society of doing nothing and withdrawing methadone is greater than the cost of the methadone programme. Actually putting in a programme of rehabilitation will be an expensive additional cost.

    It would be interesting to find out why heroin rooms will be a cost effective alternative to the methadone programme.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by grantzer View Post
    The answer is to treat it as a health problem not a criminal one. Addicts avoid doctors and dentists,they don't access support other than the methadone,and the only thing that methadone does is rot teeth and make chemists and drug companies rich.

    There are better ways. A drug called bupranorphine acts like heroine,it also makes you violently ill if you continue with heroine. The treatment is to get you hooked on that,then get you off it,the withdrawals are not nearly as severe. It is too expensive tho. Another way is to treat with medical grade heroine, while in a secure environment,along with support from pretty much every service. This is usually done by gradually lowering the dose,until the addict is clean. They are then relocated,to somewhere they don't know anyone to get gear from.

    That method is estimated to have possible savings of over a billion a year,with crimes like shoplifting and breaking and entering falling,but politically,I think would be a no-go
    Could not disagree more, the countries that have the harshest penalties and pretty much zero tolerance within an ordered society fare best

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCram View Post
    Agree that our social services seem to be aimed at keeping people in the system rather than getting them back on their feet and looking after themselves. Had a very well informed talk at our Rotary Club by someone who had to deal with drug addiction. I was surprised y his support for the methadone support for addicts. Apparently the problem is not the methadone but the lack of rigorous care packages to help addicts to get out of the system. Nobody thinks that allowing addicts to live on a methadone programme is acceptable but the cost to the state/society of doing nothing and withdrawing methadone is greater than the cost of the methadone programme. Actually putting in a programme of rehabilitation will be an expensive additional cost.

    It would be interesting to find out why heroin rooms will be a cost effective alternative to the methadone programme.
    They won't be.

    Bring your own

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by grantzer View Post
    The answer is to treat it as a health problem not a criminal one. Addicts avoid doctors and dentists,they don't access support other than the methadone,and the only thing that methadone does is rot teeth and make chemists and drug companies rich.

    There are better ways. A drug called bupranorphine acts like heroine,it also makes you violently ill if you continue with heroine. The treatment is to get you hooked on that,then get you off it,the withdrawals are not nearly as severe. It is too expensive tho. Another way is to treat with medical grade heroine, while in a secure environment,along with support from pretty much every service. This is usually done by gradually lowering the dose,until the addict is clean. They are then relocated,to somewhere they don't know anyone to get gear from.

    That method is estimated to have possible savings of over a billion a year,with crimes like shoplifting and breaking and entering falling,but politically,I think would be a no-go
    Thanks grantzer.for these points. I think that public opinion might be changed if there was a costed programme.If Methadone costs say were £50 per dose, and heroin was £20 per dose I think that would change public opinion. I had a look at the research and it all seems too complicated . Methadone £8k per addict compared with £6k per diabetic , but when you try to add in the reduction in crime the costs of methadone seem quite affordable.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Returnofrros View Post
    Could not disagree more, the countries that have the harshest penalties and pretty much zero tolerance within an ordered society fare best
    But we can't put the genie back in the box. We have a problem and we need to deal with it. Social exclusion doesn't help,and criminalising addicts excludes them

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Returnofrros View Post
    Could not disagree more, the countries that have the harshest penalties and pretty much zero tolerance within an ordered society fare best
    This seems a bit authoritarian and seems at odds with your personal liberty thinking.I think you are right but I don't think that either you or I would like to live in countries where such strict rules are applied.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by grantzer View Post
    But we can't put the genie back in the box. We have a problem and we need to deal with it. Social exclusion doesn't help,and criminalising addicts excludes them
    So what about changing the law from now or a future date?

    Get clean by 2025 or we will put you away for a long time and those that deal you won't get out.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCram View Post
    This seems a bit authoritarian and seems at odds with your personal liberty thinking.I think you are right but I don't think that either you or I would like to live in countries where such strict rules are applied.
    It's the opposite of authoritarian, it's a structured ordered society.

  10. #20
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    I'd recommend the Mr Peter Hitchens book.....drugs...the war we never fought.

    Very detailed.

    Maybe someone could recommend a book for me on the other side of the debate.

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