...and Bradford City

[jimmyboldon]

You may know that if I posted stuff like that, I would be accused of 'bullying' others to get into line or else? It may be out dated, but its not outdated clap trap as you have forgotten two things. We won the world cup before academies were even thought off and footballers at all levels were chosen strictly on ability at around the age of 20 not some outdated idea that you can coach 5-10 year old kids that one day may be suitable for league football at the lowest level. Frankie Lord scored many hatricks purely on his ability to head the ball and not one Crewe player since his day has done that....So if that is outdated claptrap I feel sorry for anyone that cannot see the wood for the trees that football is about scoring goals and not defending for 89 mins and hoping you can get a one off breakaway....But hey, I doubt that 99% of todays fans would agree...

Take it easy mate, this is only a football forum hopefully where ALL views are welcome!

Realise I’m banging my head against a brick wall…but, we won the World Cup without academies along with every other team, domestic or international. Nobody had academies. Now every team coaches players. We would get slaughtered if we didn’t.
I’m perfectly happy with my knowledge of the English language thank you, and as I have not a clue who you are, you are not my mate.

[Timmy58]

You may know that if I posted stuff like that, I would be accused of 'bullying' others to get into line or else? It may be out dated, but its not outdated clap trap as you have forgotten two things. We won the world cup before academies were even thought off and footballers at all levels were chosen strictly on ability at around the age of 20 not some outdated idea that you can coach 5-10 year old kids that one day may be suitable for league football at the lowest level. Frankie Lord scored many hatricks purely on his ability to head the ball and not one Crewe player since his day has done that....So if that is outdated claptrap I feel sorry for anyone that cannot see the wood for the trees that football is about scoring goals and not defending for 89 mins and hoping you can get a one off breakaway....But hey, I doubt that 99% of todays fans would agree...

Take it easy mate, this is only a football forum hopefully where ALL views are welcome!

I wouldn't use the term "claptrap" when commenting on your opinions. After all, that is what they are. However I disagree vehemently with much of what you say. You have criticised the number of management staff on our books but I would point out that it is widely acknowledged that our previous manager's workload was literally unmanageable. He was doing everything, something totally unrealistic in the modern game. Had you watched the Forest v Spurs game yesterday you would have heard the commentator referring to the appointment of a "set piece" coach in the Spurs ranks. I can imagine you ripping your hair out as I type this.
You also say that football was better in the days when we had teams playing with 5 forwards and running directly at goal. To some extent, this happens now but is less successful because the quality and abilities of defenders is much greater than the times you hark back to.

The point is that coaching does improve players of any sport. Players involved in football, cricket, tennis, badminton all benefit from coaching regardless of ability and if, for example, we in England decided to dispense with it you would very soon see us getting left behind.

I know you will disagree and quote JG and GB but even those two brilliant players will have had some level of coaching in their careers.

[MikeSB]

I wouldn't use the term "claptrap" when commenting on your opinions. After all, that is what they are. However I disagree vehemently with much of what you say. You have criticised the number of management staff on our books but I would point out that it is widely acknowledged that our previous manager's workload was literally unmanageable. He was doing everything, something totally unrealistic in the modern game. Had you watched the Forest v Spurs game yesterday you would have heard the commentator referring to the appointment of a "set piece" coach in the Spurs ranks. I can imagine you ripping your hair out as I type this.
You also say that football was better in the days when we had teams playing with 5 forwards and running directly at goal. To some extent, this happens now but is less successful because the quality and abilities of defenders is much greater than the times you hark back to.

The point is that coaching does improve players of any sport. Players involved in football, cricket, tennis, badminton all benefit from coaching regardless of ability and if, for example, we in England decided to dispense with it you would very soon see us getting left behind.

I know you will disagree and quote JG and GB but even those two brilliant players will have had some level of coaching in their careers.

I suspect you are all getting confused with the term 'coaching' and training would be far better as all players both professional and amateur had that in all sports. I disgree with you on that all players are improved by erm, coaching as I played golf for 40 years to single figure handicap and had perhaps two lessons with the club Pro and what a waste of money that was. Most of the golfers I played alongside with were high handicaps and not one lesson by Jack Nicklaus could have improved them. I won't watch PL matches now even with a free ticket no matter who they were playing. Ditto Tennis where all the skill has gone like Nastasi with net control of the ball and I will have to disagree about our level of football in the lower divisions and maybe even at the top where Bill Nicholson was manager of everyyhing and they won the double league and FA cup too and do you know why? Because he signed and had excellent footballers and had hardly any training with them and certainly no coaching and they were tacticians rather than coaches. I think most of our Alex team of the old days would beat todays Alex team easily and the kids would have no chance against most of them. Football is or should be about attacking the goal, not playing in the middle of the pitch waiting for a break away to score. That is my opinion and entitled to it and its certainly not 'claptrap' and people using that word on here have failed the plot in what football should be about and the plain fact that we won the world cup with not one academy or coach is the clear evidence that its not needed then or now but is a great way of employing also rans and amateurs in so called academies. David Platt had all the coaching badges in the world like they all do now and how far did he get? Mourino can't win a sausage now as he can't sign the best players etc etc etc. How many managers have Crewe Alex got now? Ten is it and yet we cannot afford to sign a player as no money...Plot lost completely. There is no way our academy kids could play on those pitches of yesterday...It was Dave Artell who could not manage properly and maybe it was because he was not a football manager and so wanted to do everything himself, even refereeing the matches...All we need is ONE manager as all clubs had in the past not a committee where all Professional Clubs have even a boot cleaner...FGS what has happened and in those days they didn't get much money and that is the real enemy of football...One season and made for life, playing in half empty grounds?

[MikeSB]

Oh I should have added that we can have academy players here for 15 years and yet AM can say that some or most of them are not suitable for the first team and need to get out and play some 'mens' football in non league etc.

So the logic of that is why spend millions on academies and wait donkeys years to see if they are suitable when you can see thousands of players now today across the world of the right age group. OK some will argue that doing that would cost the club more money and then the question remains in HOW can non league afford most of their players and not even full time? Some will have benefactors but most don't..

Just to say that IF our club needs all these managers, why not get rid of the Pros and sign one or two more mangers and get them to play the matches...Win all round and they know the game better don't they...

I have to add that Garry Player one of the top Golfers the world has ever seen said when a coach can play Golf better than him, he will listen to them..OK a bit of a laugh but many top sportsmen have gone to the dogs the minute they took on a coach and that is true...Because they will try and alter the players basic instinct and natural ability and that is fact not opinion if anyone wants to look....Check the Wimbledon match courts to see where all the wear on the grass is after a few days...All behind the baseline and the rest of the court as green as grass! . Facts again, not opinion!

[MeForCrewe]

Just on the golf theme. Rory McIlroy just won the Fed Ex Cup, worth a few million. He attributes his rise in form to his greatly improved putting, which he credits Brad Faxon for, who he engaged as his putting coach. Just a thought.

[jimmyboldon]

Oh I should have added that we can have academy players here for 15 years and yet AM can say that some or most of them are not suitable for the first team and need to get out and play some 'mens' football in non league etc.

So the logic of that is why spend millions on academies and wait donkeys years to see if they are suitable when you can see thousands of players now today across the world of the right age group. OK some will argue that doing that would cost the club more money and then the question remains in HOW can non league afford most of their players and not even full time? Some will have benefactors but most don't..

Just to say that IF our club needs all these managers, why not get rid of the Pros and sign one or two more mangers and get them to play the matches...Win all round and they know the game better don't they...

I have to add that Garry Player one of the top Golfers the world has ever seen said when a coach can play Golf better than him, he will listen to them..OK a bit of a laugh but many top sportsmen have gone to the dogs the minute they took on a coach and that is true...Because they will try and alter the players basic instinct and natural ability and that is fact not opinion if anyone wants to look....Check the Wimbledon match courts to see where all the wear on the grass is after a few days...All behind the baseline and the rest of the court as green as grass! . Facts again, not opinion!

Re the tennis. Why do you think that is the case Mike?
I’ll tell you.
The grass is different to the era of Laver, Newcombe etc, slower. The balls are of a reduced pressure, hence slower. This means that the returner has more time to play a passing shot. If you try to play a serve volley game you will be passed on most points and lose.
And that’s not taking into account the improvement in racquet technology and increase in size.
But don’t let the facts get in the way.

[gazan]

Oh I should have added that we can have academy players here for 15 years and yet AM can say that some or most of them are not suitable for the first team and need to get out and play some 'mens' football in non league etc.

So the logic of that is why spend millions on academies and wait donkeys years to see if they are suitable when you can see thousands of players now today across the world of the right age group. OK some will argue that doing that would cost the club more money and then the question remains in HOW can non league afford most of their players and not even full time? Some will have benefactors but most don't..

Just to say that IF our club needs all these managers, why not get rid of the Pros and sign one or two more mangers and get them to play the matches...Win all round and they know the game better don't they...

I have to add that Garry Player one of the top Golfers the world has ever seen said when a coach can play Golf better than him, he will listen to them..OK a bit of a laugh but many top sportsmen have gone to the dogs the minute they took on a coach and that is true...Because they will try and alter the players basic instinct and natural ability and that is fact not opinion if anyone wants to look....Check the Wimbledon match courts to see where all the wear on the grass is after a few days...All behind the baseline and the rest of the court as green as grass! . Facts again, not opinion!

Okay, I take the bait. Several points: when did this 'golden era' end (give us a date with an event to mark it). ;
I don't know how 'naturally' good at golf you were but condemning all coaching on the basis of a your couple of hours with a club pro is hardly scientific evidence, is it? (I had quite a few crap teachers during my schooldays, but I would hardly suggest that means they're all bad and that teaching should be abolished)
Where does this idea of half empty stadiums come from? The Alex are getting as good a crowd as when I arrived in Crewe in 1966. However, 10 years later the crowds were just around 2,000 (as I don't know your chronological parameters, I don't know if the 70s were in your 'golden age' or not!);
Dario Gradi was a coach and totally transformed the club and its approach to player development - are you saying we would have better off without him?
You continually ignore the idea that coaching improves the overall majority of play and cherry pick individuals like Greaves and Best as having natural talent. On this latter part I can go along with your opinion, to some extent i.e. coaching MIGHT inhibit the abilities of certain very talented individuals. However, the vast majority of sports people do not qualify for that excessively small group. (As an aside, extreme talent MAY also be part of an overall personality package. Your favourite examples both came to untimely ends through lack of self- discipline).
As for academy graduates needing time playing games with men, I don't see why that's an issue. It's all about theory and practice and gaining real world experience. Very few people go through training or education and immediately slot into top jobs.
There are other issues here but hopefully these responses provide food for thought.
I also want to say that you are fully entitled to your opinion and can express it as many times as you wish. It is not helpful when people refer to them as 'claptrap' or other meaningless terms. However, I do understand the frustration of reading the same thing relentlessly with no evidence of taking other arguments on board.
I realise this is a long post but I wanted to engage (not dismiss) you in the hope that conversations, and not catcalling, can continue. If this doesn't work then I have to impose some self-discipline myself and resist responding to inflexible positions.
Thanks

[frogpole]

Been doing a bit of digging, because I clearly remember Malcolm Allison being coach at Man City ...

Apparently Allison played for West Ham from 1951-57 ...

Found this quote from Bobby Moore ...

"I'd been a professional for two and a half months and Malcolm had taught me everything I know.... When Malcolm was coaching schoolboys he took a liking to me when I don't think anyone else at West Ham saw anything special in me... I looked up to the man. It's not too strong to say I loved him." ...

Please note the phrase 'coaching schoolboys'

As a coach, he is remembered for assisting manager Joe Mercer in the transformation of the team he supported as a young boy – Manchester City. During the 1960s and early 1970s, Allison won six major trophies in seven years with Mercer ...

Wanna finish on a lighter note, coz Allison was known as a bit of a Big Mouth - it was rumoured they wanted him as England Team Coach, they were gonna take his teeth out and put seats in

Keep smilin'

[jimmyboldon]

OED definition of claptrap is … absurd or nonsensical talk or ideas.
Can’t see the reason for the opprobrium.
But no more rising to the bait for me, it’s tedious on all levels.

[Timmy58]

Okay, I take the bait. Several points: when did this 'golden era' end (give us a date with an event to mark it). ;
I don't know how 'naturally' good at golf you were but condemning all coaching on the basis of a your couple of hours with a club pro is hardly scientific evidence, is it? (I had quite a few crap teachers during my schooldays, but I would hardly suggest that means they're all bad and that teaching should be abolished)
Where does this idea of half empty stadiums come from? The Alex are getting as good a crowd as when I arrived in Crewe in 1966. However, 10 years later the crowds were just around 2,000 (as I don't know your chronological parameters, I don't know if the 70s were in your 'golden age' or not!);
Dario Gradi was a coach and totally transformed the club and its approach to player development - are you saying we would have better off without him?
You continually ignore the idea that coaching improves the overall majority of play and cherry pick individuals like Greaves and Best as having natural talent. On this latter part I can go along with your opinion, to some extent i.e. coaching MIGHT inhibit the abilities of certain very talented individuals. However, the vast majority of sports people do not qualify for that excessively small group. (As an aside, extreme talent MAY also be part of an overall personality package. Your favourite examples both came to untimely ends through lack of self- discipline).
As for academy graduates needing time playing games with men, I don't see why that's an issue. It's all about theory and practice and gaining real world experience. Very few people go through training or education and immediately slot into top jobs.
There are other issues here but hopefully these responses provide food for thought.
I also want to say that you are fully entitled to your opinion and can express it as many times as you wish. It is not helpful when people refer to them as 'claptrap' or other meaningless terms. However, I do understand the frustration of reading the same thing relentlessly with no evidence of taking other arguments on board.
I realise this is a long post but I wanted to engage (not dismiss) you in the hope that conversations, and not catcalling, can continue. If this doesn't work then I have to impose some self-discipline myself and resist responding to inflexible positions.
Thanks

It does become hard work trying to justify the bleedin obvious . I mean, every sport including golf has coaches and yes, i imagine some may benefit more than others. The idea that Dave Artel was not a good football manager because he couldn't cope with doing everything is bizarre in the extreme. Just because the revered Bill Nicholson did it and won the league and the FA cup just really justify the argument. Did Spurs win the youth cup or the under 18 and under 23 leagues? Did he go and watch all the games? Did those competitions even exist then?

It is also perfectly reasonable to send our Academy players out on loan to get experience playing in "men's football" as playing against other Academy teams isn't quite the same as the rough and tumble of the EFL or, indeed, the Premier league. There are odd instances of young players going straight from Academy to first team in the higher leagues but the norm is that Prem and Championship clubs send their kids out to clubs like ours for experience. We send ours out to National League and below. That tends to sort out whether they will make it or not.

No doubt the argument will continue over the ensuing months and years!