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Thread: O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

  1. #451
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    Yeah that's right, Ukraine's nazi problem is so bad... the current president is Jewish. Clearly nazis in control over there

    Or, you know, like every western nation they've got a tiny minority of wacko extreme right wingers who aren't actually in control of anything significant.

    Kremlin talking points talk it up endlessly, and Andy does nothing but repeat Kremlin talking points.

  2. #452
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    I would give it a rest Andy, no one agrees with your Kremlin propaganda nonsense😴😴

  3. #453
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    Putin is using similar excuses that Hitler used when he went into Sudetenland in 1938 and Poland 1939.
    And look what happened then and later to him.

  4. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy6025 View Post
    Driller. I do indeed think that people ought to hate Nazis. Anyone that thinks otherwise should give their head a shake.

    Cool links though. There are some more though that you might have overlooked:

    Here’s Zalensky standing in a cathedral and channeling Darth Vader to tell us that the Lorde and heavenly light is on his side in fighting the hordes of evil, and that Christ has risen for him, for God lives in Kiev. It’s some pretty well manicured propaganda. Do you think the CIA helped him with it?

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_con...ature=emb_logo

    And as for Ukraine’s very serious Nazi problem, you don’t have to take Putin’s word for it, here’s a whole slew of western sources saying the same thing.

    USA Today tells us that Ukraine’s militias are founded and manned by white supremacist nazis:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...002/?gnt-cfr=1

    Or the Jerusalem Post reporting on a George Washington University study that the US, UK, Germany, France, Canada and Poland are arming and training Nazis both in Ukraine as well as abroad:

    https://m.jpost.com/diaspora/western...ort-682411/amp

    Or the Time of Israeli denouncing the annual Ukrainian marches in support of Ukrainian Nazi collaborator Stephen Bandera. Notice in the article they quote Ukrainian Pravda as writing: “Nationalism is our religion and Bandera is our prophet”:

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundre...-collaborator/

    Or how The Nation reports that neo-nazis are on the march in Ukraine:

    https://www.thenation.com/article/po...right-ukraine/

    Or the West Point Institute for Counter Terrorism showing that Ukraine has become a focal point and destination for far right Nazis from America and all over Europe:

    https://ctc.usma.edu/wp-content/uplo...NEL-042020.pdf

    Or here’s the OSCE writing about Ukrainian war crimes against the civilian populations in the Donbas by the Ukrainian military and Ukrainian Nazi groups like Right Sector. Here’s a gruesome part of the report on the treatment of prisoners:

    *The prisoners were electrocuted, beaten cruelly and for multiple days in a row with different objects (iron bars, baseball bats, sticks, rifle butts, bayonet knives, rubber batons).
    Techniques widely used by the Ukrainian armed forces and security forces include waterboarding, strangling with a ‘Banderist garrotte’ and other types of strangling.
    In some cases prisoners, for the purposes of intimidation, were sent to minefields and run over with military vehicles, which led to their death.
    Other torture methods used by the Ukrainian armed forces and security forces include bone-crashing, stabbing and cutting with a knife, branding with red-hot objects, shooting different body parts with small arms.
    The prisoners taken captive by the Ukrainian armed forces and security forces are kept for days at freezing temperatures, with no access to food or medical assistance, and are often forced to take psychotropic substances that cause agony.
    An absolute majority of prisoners are put through mock firing squads and suffer death and rape threats to their families.
    Many of those tortured are not members of the self-defense forces of the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics (DPR and LPR).*

    https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/7/233896.pdf

    Or another report from the OSCE in which they point to marches and violent “progroms” by ultra right Nazis, sometimes in coordination with Ukrainian police!

    https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/6/0/394781.pdf

    Here’s The Guardian telling us about the role of ultra right Ukrainian Nazis in overthrowing the democratically elected government and their power post-coup:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...-a-photo-essay

    And here’s two investigative reports on BBC Newsnight about Nazi militias in Ukraine, destroying Russian owned shops, intimidating officials, controlling the streets and doing all kinds of other awful things:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hE6b4ao8gAQ

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sEKQsnRGv7s&t=2s

    As the fictitious character Indians Jones once rightfully said, “I hate Nazis!”
    Morning Andy. Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't want to get into this with you, because we did it all before in 2014 and personally I didn't think it was a very satisfying or enlightening exchange.

    The early signs here are that this time would be no different. Some of the things you say could be interesting to talk about, but other things you say, like comparing the US troop surge in Iraq to the upcoming Russian mobilisation, make me realise it's just not worth it.

    Conparing the most technologically advanced and highly trained military the world has ever seen, to depositing 300k untrained, ill-disciplined, unmotivated vodka sponges and violent criminals in the middle of a war zone, without even basic equipment, is just silly.

    I am taking that as a sign you are unreachable on this topic.

    I also know that it would be very time consuming, and you are prepared to put a lot of time into writing your point of view and passing on links to read. I'm not being facetious - I actually am interested in all of this, I'm busy at work and simply don't have time.

    I know that you are enthusiastic about political science, so I would just ask that as a good political scientist you don't present facts outside of historical context, and to use a biblical metaphor, you don't pass judgement on the speck of dust in other countries' eyes while ignoring the planks of wood in Russia's eyes. I would also hope you start using the critical thinking you ask others to use, and wrongly presume they haven't.

    Here's hoping Russia sees sense very soon and puts and end to this absurd invasion.

  5. #455
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    I think this thread wants merging with the congrats to Russia one.

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old_pie View Post
    Well those that do ask questions, even powerful businessmen, seem to fall out of windows or get shot before they get that far. Some seem to forget that doesn't happen in other places where critical comment can be made from the security of their NATO protected and democratic country.

    No doubt there are those who view Stalin as a saviour, regret the knocking down of the Berlin wall and wish to see the re-establishment of the Soviet Union and tanks rolling into Hungary, Czeckoslakia etc. They could even reach Finland, Sweden and if global warming is reversed, Canada. хорошее здоровье comrades. It's a good job Notts are black and white. Imagine the confusion being the other lot
    Yes well they make no attempt to hide their desire to take back all of Eastern Europe. Actually they do try to hide it, but it's so pathetic they may as well not bother.

    Here's a Russian defence official on Russian state TV going all-in with the usual bat**** mental propaganda (Russia is apparently still inflicting 7-10 times worse losses on Ukraine than vice versa, even while they're in retreat and getting their arses handed to them on all fronts).

    At the end he goes totally off script and declares Belarus as part of Russia. He has to be reminded that Belarus is an internationally recognised 'independent' republic, although we all know that, as happened with Ukraine, that 'independence' will only last until the Belarusian people eventually manage to get rid of the pro-Russian dictator there.

    https://youtu.be/pXCOYGukzY8

  7. #457
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    North Korea is not like Russia. The Russian people especially the young know what is happening in the outside world they have access to social media etc. even though their government tries to stop this.
    NK on the other hand are like a third world country in regard to the population and only know what they are told and have no idea how the rest of the world live.

  8. #458
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    I certainly don’t think the West were innocent when the US and UK invaded Iraq (though France questioned that decision), and actions in Libya, Afghanistan and Syria were also highly questionable.

    But fear of Nato is no justification for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and it looks much more like imperial ambitions. If Russia was genuinely concerned about the treatment of Russian speakers in Ukraine, there are diplomatic and moral pressures that can be applied. Try to win the argument and appeal to the Ukrainian government’s better nature, not use force and the threat of force.

  9. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by applepie2 View Post
    I certainly don’t think the West were innocent when the US and UK invaded Iraq (though France questioned that decision), and actions in Libya, Afghanistan and Syria were also highly questionable.

    But fear of Nato is no justification for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and it looks much more like imperial ambitions. If Russia was genuinely concerned about the treatment of Russian speakers in Ukraine, there are diplomatic and moral pressures that can be applied. Try to win the argument and appeal to the Ukrainian government’s better nature, not use force and the threat of force.
    I just feel the need to point out here that many languages are spoken in Ukraine, but Russian is the first language in about half the country.

    This absolutely does not mean that these people feel oppressed by Zelensky, or wanted to be invaded by Russia.

    Anecdotally, I have good friends in Ukraine (Dnipro) whose first language is Russian. One volunteered to fight against Russia and is now in a hospital bed with a mashed up leg, and the other is helping Ukraine's international legion with logistics. They are both now learning Ukranian.

    More objectively, President Zelensky's first language is Russian, (although he chooses to speak Ukrainian in public now for obvious reasons) and it would be rather silly to oppress himself.

    Although in the parallel dimension of Kremlin propaganda he's a Jewish Nazi, so let's also call him an anti Russian-speaker Russian-speaker. Anything goes at this point.

    Also, if you look at the map for the last presidential elections, you will see that Zelensky was very popular in Russian speaking areas, and was seen as being one of the first politicians to represent the whole of Ukraine regardless of linguistic differences.

  10. #460
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    [Threads 'Ukraine' and 'Congrats to Russia' merged]

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