O/T:- World Cup 2022

[BigFatPie]

Everybody's got an opinion on Gareth Southgate, but the next one, two or three games should effectively end that debate one way or another.

His tournament record so far has been padded out by some fortunate fixtures against teams we should expect to beat anyway (Tunisia, Panama, Ukraine, Czech Republic, Denmark etc.), allowing us to get to a semi-final and then a final. This served to disguise what were then disappointing losses against Croatia and Italy when it came to crunch time.

Southgate's most notable tournament victory was against a German team who have been demonstrably in decline in recent years, but now he has the chance to prove he's a big match winner rather than just a chancer riding his luck. You have to regard current World Champions France as the first acid test in this World Cup and nobody could reasonably downplay the significance of a win against them, especially if it's then backed up by further results.

To quote a great line from Yes, Minister: "Are you (i.e. Mr Southgate) a genuine high-flyer or just a low-flyer supported by occasional gusts of wind?"

Southgate has to beat France to prove he’s ‘not a chancer riding his luck’? That’s pretty harsh. It’s probably a good time to remind ourselves that in our last pre Southgate tournament we were knocked out by Iceland. We swatted away the African champions last night like Notts beat S****horpe, as a minor inconvenience. No idea whether we’ll beat the world champions, and the world’s best player, but to use that as a yardstick for Southgate as a success or a failure is pretty wide of the mark imo.

[laddo]

Hear, hear BFP.

It would be a valid yardstick if previous England managers and squads had performed (noticeably) better than Southgate's, but they simply haven't. If England do lose to reigning world champions then Southgate's England will remain exactly where they have been since he came in Good but not quite good enough. But still no worse and on most occasions better than his predecessors.

Jackals view is harsh IMO but shared by many. Basically until we win a major tournament nothings changed, we lose against the very best. I don't buy it.

[jackal2]

Jackals view is harsh IMO but shared by many. Basically until we win a major tournament nothing's changed, we lose against the very best. I don't buy it.

In our semi-final defeat in the last World Cup and our loss in the final of Euro 2020, I'm not sure we actually did lose to the 'very best'.

Croatia are a proud footballing nation who punch consistently above their weight, but they aren't world-beaters as France showed in the final. Likewise, Italy are a team who impressed me in the Euros, but whose results before and since suggest they lived a charmed life in that tournament. We actually had them in the palm of our hands, 1-0 up within five minutes, but by common consensus Southgate's over-cautious tactics let them back into the game and we lost a golden opportunity - at home - to repeat the glory of 1966.

I don't really buy the argument that Southgate is a good manager because his recent predecessors as England boss failed more dramatically than he did. It's true that Sven Goran Eriksson, Fabio Capello, Steve McLaren and Roy Hodgson all fell well short of expectations given the supposed talent of the players at their disposal, and it's true that Southgate has done better than them - results wise - in major tournaments, but ultimately the outcome is the same - we've won nothing.

We're not alone of course. Belgium will be asking themselves the same question about the way Marc Wilmots and Roberto Martinez managed their 'golden generation' of talent, and there will be plenty of apologists pointing out that only one team can ever win a tournament, but if England are ever again going to be winners, then the manager and players need to overcome that mental barrier and refuse to be second-best.

Beating France would be a big statement in that direction. People like me who question how and why Southgate got the England job (after failing in his only club management role) would have to acknowledge such a result as proof that he can deliver results against the 'very best', and hopefully this would leave the team with great belief and nothing to fear in the semi-final and final.

If not, then we'll have to listen to yet another England manager and all his ridiculously well-paid players telling us how they tried their best and how difficult it all was, again.

As Ric Flair would say, "to be the man you've got to beat the man", so here's an opportunity to beat 'the man' (i.e. the current world champions) and prove all the doubters wrong. Top managers and players are the ones who take those opportunities.

[laddo]

I'm not sure you can call European Championship winners and World Cup finalists anything other than the very best by the very nature they reached the final of the two biggest nations tournaments in the world.

Your can't downplay either nation especially the Italians. They've got a decent record when it comes to winning things.

I'm not saying Gareth was a good club manager, at the time I don't think he should have been given the job. But facts are facts his record as England boss, where it matters in major competitions/tournaments is very good. It's better than all his predecessors back to 1966. That's a fact, not opinion. No spin needed.

Progress has been made by Southgate probably more due to the huge FA investment in infrastructure and coaching etc than the manager but it's far too basic imo opinion to say unless we win the world cup he's been no different to the rest of the managers who failed to win WC or Euros.

P.S. Thank you for the Nature Boy reference and quote, made my day.

[jackal2]

I'm not saying Gareth was a good club manager, at the time I don't think he should have been given the job. But facts are facts his record as England boss, where it matters in major competitions/tournaments is very good. It's better than all his predecessors back to 1966. That's a fact, not opinion. No spin needed.

True. We can debate to what extent that record has been achieved by good luck or good judgement, but the record books show he took us to a World Cup Semi-Final like Bobby Robson, and to a European Championship Final like nobody before him.

If his team beats France then I'll give him the credit due for such an achievement, and if they win the World Cup then every England fan will be "stylin' and profilin'"! In fact, it will get the biggest "Wooooooh" of all time!

[laddo]

True. We can debate to what extent that record has been achieved by good luck or good judgement, but the record books show he took us to a World Cup Semi-Final like Bobby Robson, and to a European Championship Final like nobody before him.

If his team beats France then I'll give him the credit due for such an achievement, and if they win the World Cup then every England fan will be "stylin' and profilin'"! In fact, it will get the biggest "Wooooooh" of all time!

And this is why you are IMO one of NCMs finest, proper football debate without falling out and turning it personal, whining or throwing toys out of the pram.

Forget 16 times a World Champion, with England in my lifetime I would be happy with just the 1, and possession based football, however much it bores some, gives us our best chance at World tournament level. History has taught us that surely?

[jackal2]

Forget 16 times a World Champion, with England in my lifetime I would be happy with just the 1, and possession-based football, however much it bores some, gives us our best chance at World tournament level. History has taught us that surely?

Agreed. Even in my previous posts questioning Southgate's credentials, I've given him due credit for introducing more of a possession game. My issue is that it needs to be played at a much higher tempo than we saw for the first 35 minutes last night, which was ridiculously pedestrian and could have put us in trouble. The game changed and the goals came when we upped the tempo and mixed up our approach a bit more to get the Senegal players guessing. There's nothing wrong with playing a possession game overall (especially if you're ahead) but still hitting a few balls over the top so it doesn't become too predictable.

I see similarities between the development of England and Notts County in that regard. Neal Ardley began introducing the passing game, but at times it was slow, one-dimensional and predictable. Ian Burchnall refined the passing game and got the players doing everything a little bit more quickly, but there was still a feeling at times that we were a tad lightweight and lacked a Plan B. This season, Luke Williams seems to have taken all that was best from the good work of the previous two managers but is more willing to mix up the tactics, plus his players seem to play with more desire to win and a more of an 'edge' they did under Ardley and Burch.

It could prove to be the case that Gareth Southgate represents the 'Neal Ardley phase' of transforming England into a tournament winning team. I'm not convinced he's the man to deliver trophies - I think there are better coaches out there who could take us to that next stage - but I wouldn't mind at all if GS proved me wrong.

What we have learned from the mistakes of previous England managers is that you can't play 'run and chase' football for 90 minutes every three or four days and expect to win international football tournaments. Your players just run out of steam. You've got to treasure and protect possession at least to some extent, letting the ball do the work.

[jackal2]

This Japan v Croatia game is the best of the second round fixtures so far. Japan are a great team to watch, but just lack a top quality forward. I'm surprised they didn't take the other Celtic striker, Kyogo, who in my opinion is a better finisher than Maeda.

[countygump]

This Japan v Croatia game is the best of the second round fixtures so far. Japan are a great team to watch, but just lack a top quality forward. I'm surprised they didn't take the other Celtic striker, Kyogo, who in my opinion is a better finisher than Maeda.

Feel sorry for Japan, but they really need to practice those pens.

[TSANHO]

Some great comments from both sides regarding Southgate. I’d also point out that I think Gareth has done a really good job in rebuilding England from where we were at when he arrived and perhaps getting rid of him could undo a lot of the good work that he has done in making us more unified. It is a big risk but unless he can prove himself tactically against the biggest teams in the biggest games then how long do we stick with him.

What was worrying for me was that he made pretty much the exact same mistakes against Croatia in the last World Cup and against Italy in the Euros. Both games were there for the taking but we became too passive until eventually we forgot what had got us in the driving seat in the first place…..and those substitutions at the end of the final against Italy were just bizarre and 30-35 minutes too late.

That being said, I think Southgate’s team selections often turn out to be quite inspired and against popular opinion…it’s just that in game management that appears to be lacking, is he ever going to learn that now? France is a massive test for him, a real chance to go up a level….can you imagine the real confidence in the players and fans if we beat the world champions. It’s a mental hurdle we have to cross.

I appreciate laddo’s comments on Southgate’s achievements, I share those sentiments really, but if we keep on failing (even if in the latter stages of tournaments) through poor in game tactics then do we persist with the same manager? Who else is there that could keep the same team spirit but also has top level management experience….who is also English?! I sometimes wonder if Pochettino would be a good fit but I’m not certain a foreign coach is worth going back to….unless we can persuade pep, or Luke Williams to take it on 😉