Careless Tories!

[Geoff Parkstone]

Slightly off topic but there is an online petition going to be "debated" to reduce the pensionable age to 60 for all whilst increasing the state pension to over £400 a week. This is not just or WASPIs either.
Clearly there are enough utterly delusional people out there to support this, and these people get to vote....

So let's increase tax or NI by 5% to pay for this one.

Although personally it would benefit me, it's total madness and makes the train drivers demand look modest!

[ramAnag]

Slightly off topic but there is an online petition going to be "debated" to reduce the pensionable age to 60 for all whilst increasing the state pension to over £400 a week. This is not just or WASPIs either.
Clearly there are enough utterly delusional people out there to support this, and these people get to vote....

So let's increase tax or NI by 5% to pay for this one.

Although personally it would benefit me, it's total madness and makes the train drivers demand look modest!

And yet as recently as 2008 the expectation was that (ironically) women could have that expectation and men could reasonably expect to retire at 65.

I’ll bow, as ever, to your greater financial knowledge however, and I honestly don’t mean this unpleasantly...but at approaching 69 and still working you are not typical for the following reasons.
1. You are running your own business and to that extent...calling the shots.
2. Your work is largely cerebral and requires little in terms of physical effort.
3. I suspect those such as accountants (and politicians) have either never known or (in your case given your agricultural upbringing) forgotten the demands of more physically demanding employment and yes...I include nurses, paramedics, the police, teachers and care home staff in that.

As I say...I don’t mean this nastily and I do appreciate your greater knowledge relating to the nation’s finances...however I don’t want to see a return to people working till they drop or having, at best, two or three years of retirement.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Fair points all but don't forget we have been collectively trying to wean people off state pensions via tax incentives for private pensions and workplace pensions for years now. To more than double the payout "for doing nothing" is lunacy, and given that the provision of a state pension is not from an existing fund but a burden on today's workforce, wholly unworkable.

Now if one were to means test such an increase for the most needy, there may be some legs on increasing the level of pension. But for "comfortable" pensioners like thee and me, it's wrong. Bizarely many of today's pensioners have "never had it so good'.

And approaching 68 not 69 I'll have you know. Also please do not forget the physical demands of mounting a staircase once a day.

[Trickytreesreds]

Don’t think I’ve missed your ‘jist’, Tricky.

Point by point...everything we’re talking about revolves around the CURRENT Tory Party. That’s what matters...the Tory Party that has been in power for approaching 13 years and the same Tory Party that is responsible for the Brexit shambles. Whatever they once were has nothing to do with the UK in 2023.

Not sure how far you want to go back to your ‘CONSERVATIVES OF OLD’...Douglas-Home, Ted Heath, or maybe 1979 and the advent of Thatcherism? That too, as I remember, ended in tears too with Labour’s 1997 landslide victory followed by 13 years of Labour government.

You can try and disguise them however you like but today’s Conservatives are the Tory Party that we are concerned with in this thread.

To say Labour would embrace the same policies is just senseless. Were nurses, doctors, teachers, ambulance drivers etc (even bloody Ofsted this week!) on strike under Labour?

I don’t recall commenting on the police force before but you may be right and I’ll admit I’ve been shocked by some of, to me, the ‘recent’ revelations about the Met.

To be clear, ‘my beloved Blair’ isn’t actually fair. I fully accept that later in his career, when in cahoots with Bush, he was appallingly lacking in terms of integrity and dishonesty. In that respect he was deeply flawed, but what I also remember is that in 1997 he provided the light at the end of the Thatcherite ‘tunnel’. I cannot at any stage of my life time remember any other PM making such a positive difference than that brought about by that first Blair and Brown administration.

I don't disagree, but that is my very point.
The current Tory party are as far removed from Torys as you can get.
They would barely be regarded as central at the moment. There is no control/discipline/ decisivness about any of them.

As for your strikers. Oh please, striking is synonymous under Labour control. The Unions of today, have lost their clout, that they had with heavy industry. So they have shifted their gaze to the civil services and public services.
Yes the Tory party is responsible for the Brexit shambles. By sabotaging it from within, instead of driving it the way it supposed to go.
But that is an electoral topic , obe for which they will pay for. The voters who pushed that, won't be jumping into Labours camp either. Flip Flop isn't the man to follow it through either.

[Trickytreesreds]

Fair points all but don't forget we have been collectively trying to wean people off state pensions via tax incentives for private pensions and workplace pensions for years now. To more than double the payout "for doing nothing" is lunacy, and given that the provision of a state pension is not from an existing fund but a burden on today's workforce, wholly unworkable.

Now if one were to means test such an increase for the most needy, there may be some legs on increasing the level of pension. But for "comfortable" pensioners like thee and me, it's wrong. Bizarely many of today's pensioners have "never had it so good'.

And approaching 68 not 69 I'll have you know. Also please do not forget the physical demands of mounting a staircase once a day.

You Derby buggers are just weird? If it isn't sheep, you have moved along to household structures?
That's just sick

[ramAnag]

Fair points all but don't forget we have been collectively trying to wean people off state pensions via tax incentives for private pensions and workplace pensions for years now. To more than double the payout "for doing nothing" is lunacy, and given that the provision of a state pension is not from an existing fund but a burden on today's workforce, wholly unworkable.

Now if one were to means test such an increase for the most needy, there may be some legs on increasing the level of pension. But for "comfortable" pensioners like thee and me, it's wrong. Bizarely many of today's pensioners have "never had it so good'.

And approaching 68 not 69 I'll have you know. Also please do not forget the physical demands of mounting a staircase once a day.

It seems again we have some common ground albeit slightly differing perspectives. Apologies for the age confusion. I thought we were the same. Explains a lot...the class of ‘72 was always superior.

[ramAnag]

I don't disagree, but that is my very point.
The current Tory party are as far removed from Torys as you can get.
They would barely be regarded as central at the moment. There is no control/discipline/ decisivness about any of them.

As for your strikers. Oh please, striking is synonymous under Labour control. The Unions of today, have lost their clout, that they had with heavy industry. So they have shifted their gaze to the civil services and public services.
Yes the Tory party is responsible for the Brexit shambles. By sabotaging it from within, instead of driving it the way it supposed to go.
But that is an electoral topic , obe for which they will pay for. The voters who pushed that, won't be jumping into Labours camp either. Flip Flop isn't the man to follow it through either.

No they’re not...they’re the epitome of all that is wrong with the old fashioned ‘landed gentry’ version of Conservatism where they are gradually creating a scenario where the workers have to go ‘cap in hand’ to their ‘masters’.

All you’re objecting to is the lack of tax cutting policies, but when society’s essential workers begin to react in the way they are there is something very seriously wrong. These are not workers with a reputation for taking strike action.

Striking is ‘synonymous with Labour’...I’d have another look at the last fifty years if I were you...and again we’re not talking about the past...we’re talking about the here and now. Labour haven’t been in power since 2010...stop trying to shift the blame.

Brexit and the next GE? We’ll see...but if the referendum were to be held again (I know it won’t be) do you honestly think you’d win?
Not a snowball’s...a good proportion of those who swallowed the lies have either died or recognised the giant con that was Brexit.

Assuming you’re referring to Starmer as ‘flip flop’. No idea why. To me he seems a decent man. I don’t agree with everything he says but I’ll forgive his relative lack of ‘personality’ if it means we have someone with some intelligence and integrity running the country. Fed up of personality politics...Johnson and Farage are both allegedly ‘charismatic’. For me...whoever thinks that is confusing ‘charisma’ with ‘charlatan’.

[MadAmster]

TRICKY - the national debt has NOT doubled. It has, however, tripled.

GP - Pensions. They are, indeed paid out of today's tax and NIC revenue. I believe, may be wrong that that has been the case since the 1948 Act which reformed social security. IMO they should come form a pension fund rather than out of tax/NIC. Changing that would involve a huge lead time and, until synchronised over 40 odd years, would involve higher contributions so that won't happen.

TRICKY - you seem to miss the point that the so called "Union Barons" that Sunak et al hate are not barons at all. They are Union employees elected by the membership to represent them and they actually do. Unlike those in Westminster who, once elected, seem to only represent themselves and their MP longevity. All of the current strikes were voted on by members. Huge %'s in the voting turnout and massive majorities to strike. It's the workers who feel they aren't valued, paid enough. They also believe the government is ruining their "industry". Lack of investment in wages and in the organisations has led to them stifled and crippled. NHS full of way too many chiefs and more than 100,000 too few Indians. Rail companies wanting to reduce premiums on overtime, weekend and night working. Halving maintenance and safety work.... all designed to maximise dividend payouts.

ONE AND ALL - UK pensions are among the lowest in the developed world. Much is made online by people who don't understand the system claiming, rightly, that UK pensions ARE low. They then proceed to come up with figures that don't hold water. Memes that show state pensions as a % of a nation's average wage. %s that are either way too high or based on quicksand. One shows Dutch state pensions to be 100.6% of the average wage. A state pension in the Netherlands is €12K. Average wage is €38K. Bull**** thus. They then make claims about French and German pensions, neither of which has a fixed rate but it comes from a pension fund that contributions are paid into. The Germans pay 9.2% of their wage into the state fund. Employers do too. When they reach retirement age they get an amount based on their average annual lifelong wage. The max payout is €26K a year. To qualify for that they need to have an average annual lifetime wage of €75K. Basically there's a handful who get the max. Most get similar to the Dutch state pension. The major difference between UK state pensions and EU state pensions is that most, if not all, EU pensions come from a pension fund and not from this year's tax revenue as happens in the UK.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"Brexit and the next GE? We’ll see...but if the referendum were to be held again (I know it won’t be) do you honestly think you’d win?"

This raises an interesting temporal anomaly

If the referendum were to be held now, do you mean now with the public having knowledge of the fallout from having voted the way they did 6 years earlier, or what? If it was to be held now as if the last 6 years had not existed, then it likely would have had the same outcome, although the age demographic in those eligible to vote would have changed a bit and so maybe that would have flipped the decision to marginal remain.

Or do you mean, what would the outcome be if we had a second referendum in August to seek readmission? Always assuming that the EU would let us back in without unacceptable loss of previous privilege and standing?

If there were a "reverse the decision" referendum this year, then I imagine there would be majority support for re-entry, but if 2016 had never existed and the question was being posed in todays environment I'm not sure how the vote would go. Maybe there would be more support for a unified Europe following COVID and Russian invasion. Maybe in the current more difficult economic climate people would view the concept of leaving differently. But a lot of the issues voted for in 2016 by leavers are still with us and would still influence decision making. But its impossible to say as you cannot reverse time and wipe memories: politicians would still be around to lie and manipulate public opinion, maybe not th same ones, but certainly ones with voices

[MadAmster]

How many wrinklies have passed since the referendum? The majority of 60+ voted leave. Far less of them now than there was. Further, there are lots of new voters who now have a vote as they are 18+ but were in the 11-17 age range back in 2016. The majority of the young are in favour of the EU.

Whatever the angle on the ballot. IMO, any new referendum, be that worded to overturn the 2016 vote or worded to apply to rejoin would see the UK heading back to EU membership.