Three Up from the NL?

[jacobncfc]

Whether or not the idea has merit depends on how well or how badly the clubs who have gone up from the NL via the play offs are doing in L2 and whether or not it's the same few established EFL clubs battling to stay up by the skin of their teeth, season in season out.

Grimsby are currently 16th and then you've got Hartlepool and Harrogate both struggling.
As far as I can recall, neither Rochdale or Gillingham have been in a serious battle with the drop in recent times until this season.

I'd like to see an increase for obvious reasons, but from a neutral point of view it's not exactly a compelling argument.

No team has ever been relegated the season after promotion from the National League, about the only argument you need to make. I can’t be bothered to work it out, but I reckon you get a team relegated straight back from all of the tiers above most seasons. Only real explanation is that relegation/promotion between this level and the fourth tier is unbalanced.

[jacobncfc]

You could make that argument, but nobody does because we've had three up-three down at higher levels since 1973/74 and there's never going to be much of an appetite to change back to an old system that doesn't offer any obvious benefits.

Between tier 4 and non-league since 1973 we've gone from a re-election process to one up-one down automatically (together with a stadium requirement rule that prevented numerous clubs from being promoted or relegated) to two up-two down and also a change in the structure of the play offs at 5th tier level.

Additionally, it's the same two-up and play off system in tier 6 North and tier 6 South and maybe the same in some leagues lower down. They won't be able to increase without relegating six clubs, which would be ridiculous.

Great if 3 up-3 down happens, but removing my Notts scarf for a moment, I can see why this idea has been rejected over and over again and will probably continue to be so.

It’s four up four down between this level and the one below, not two. Fourth to fifth tier is a complete outlier in terms of promotion/relegation places in English football because of a hangover from the days when it represented where it turned from professional into semi-professional football, and all of the associated ground grading and infrastructure issues.

That stuff doesn’t exist any more, all bar two clubs in the division are fully professional, all bar one or two have grounds that would be EFL standard. There’s no logical explanation for there only being two promotion places.

[Chicken Balti Pie]

Only way League 2 will vote for 3 up 3 down is if National League became League 3. The issue with that is the premier League would pipe in with B teams again, but with more money to offer and the likes of Boreham Wood with sub 1000 attendances, can't even argue we'd offer more attendances.

I think we will just have to do it the hard way but also remember those stuck down here when we finally escape

[upthemaggies]

There’s no logical explanation for there only being two promotion places.

Gates.

8 clubs in L2 currently average less than 3,500, 6 of those 8 have either been promoted in the last 5 years or are traditionally non-league clubs.

Further up, 4 clubs in L1 less than 3.5k, all of them coming out of the NL.


The bottom 7 average L2 gates.
Stevenage 3,427
Barrow 3,399
Sutton United 3,049
Crawley Town 2,896
Salford City 2,856
Rochdale 2,818
Harrogate Town 2,104

Bottom 4 in L1
Fleetwood Town 3,403
Burton Albion 3,332
Accrington Stanley 3,276
Forest Green Rovers 3,033

With 2 up 2 down, most traditional league clubs with decent gates return in no-time, only Wrexham have got stuck for any serious length of time.

We're wasting our energy hoping for 3 up as an exit strategy anytime soon.

[jacobncfc]

Gates.

8 clubs in L2 currently average less than 3,500, 6 of those 8 have either been promoted in the last 5 years or are traditionally non-league clubs.

Further up, 4 clubs in L1 less than 3.5k, all of them coming out of the NL.


The bottom 7 average L2 gates.
Stevenage 3,427
Barrow 3,399
Sutton United 3,049
Crawley Town 2,896
Salford City 2,856
Rochdale 2,818
Harrogate Town 2,104

Bottom 4 in L1
Fleetwood Town 3,403
Burton Albion 3,332
Accrington Stanley 3,276
Forest Green Rovers 3,033

With 2 up 2 down, most traditional league clubs with decent gates return in no-time, only Wrexham have got stuck for any serious length of time.

We're wasting our energy hoping for 3 up as an exit strategy anytime soon.

I don’t get your point? It’s not a highest average attendance competition haha. I’m not really arguing on the basis of an exit strategy, we’ll be fine either way, but because it’s blindingly obvious it’s what should happen if you look at it objectively.

[upthemaggies]

It’s four up four down between this level and the one below, not two..

If you're in tier 6, it's the same predicament as tier 5, you either win the title or face "the lottery" of the play offs.
Tier 5 isn't the glaring anomaly we make it out to be. Promotion is consistent with the rest of the NL and I suspect a lot of levels below. Doesn't make it right, perfect or ideal, but it's not the great bullet proof argument for change that we think it is.

[upthemaggies]

I don’t get your point? It’s not a highest average attendance competition haha..

Outcome of a vote to decide whether or not to increase from 2 to 3 isn't decided on the pitch is it.
It's decided over boardroom tables with money being the decisive factor. Clubs like Northampton aren't going to want to see L2 further flooded with the likes of Harrogate and Barrow who don't put bums on seats

[jacobncfc]

If you're in tier 6, it's the same predicament as tier 5, you either win the title or face "the lottery" of the play offs.
Tier 5 isn't the glaring anomaly we make it out to be. Promotion is consistent with the rest of the NL and I suspect a lot of levels below. Doesn't make it right, perfect or ideal, but it's not the great bullet proof argument for change that we think it is.

That’s because it’s feeding into two different divisions, though, and the same as you then move down the levels. League Two is absolutely unique in only having two relegation places, for no obvious reason whatsoever.

[jacobncfc]

Outcome of a vote to decide whether or not to increase from 2 to 3 isn't decided on the pitch is it.
It's decided over boardroom tables with money being the decisive factor. Clubs like Northampton aren't going to want to see L2 further flooded with the likes of Harrogate and Barrow who don't put bums on seats

This is true, which is why it’s good it looks like being tied to part of a wider package. Really it should be taken out of their hands by the mooted new regulator just going ‘well that’s stupid’ and rationalising the whole thing. Ideally into smaller divisions of 20 as well.

[Elite_Pie]

I would go a step further and propose a 4 up and 4 down system between League 2 and the NL. If Wrexham did happen to fail this season, the EFL would be shooting itself in the foot big time. They would greatly enhance their product, because the publicity they would generate would probably be more than the other 23 clubs combined.