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Thread: Small Boats etc solution

  1. #1
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    Small Boats etc solution

    We're onto the old old subject again and its slidingslowly into handbags at dawn

    TTR and rA,try this:

    In 500 words,

    TTR explain how UK a) shows some compassion to those most 'at risk' from persecution and b) fills its many thousands (millions) of vacant job roles to kick the economy back into life WITHOUT a progressive immigration policy

    rA explain how we would fund an influx of maybe millions of varying degrees of ability/dependancy/lawfulness if we just opened our borders to anyone who wanted to come

    Genuine challenge.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    We're onto the old old subject again and its slidingslowly into handbags at dawn

    TTR and rA,try this:

    In 500 words,

    TTR explain how UK a) shows some compassion to those most 'at risk' from persecution and b) fills its many thousands (millions) of vacant job roles to kick the economy back into life WITHOUT a progressive immigration policy

    rA explain how we would fund an influx of maybe millions of varying degrees of ability/dependancy/lawfulness if we just opened our borders to anyone who wanted to come

    Genuine challenge.
    I have, if you read my posts.

    1. Stop all illegal migration. No compromise nothing. It is a governments job, to defend a nations borders and its citizens.
    We took 500 000 into our borders last year, most of them legally coming here for study/work.
    That was our choice. The VISA system is there to vet those workers/students and ensure the undesirables are kept out. EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD DOES THIS. This is not as Lineker described, an anti foreigner country like 1930's Germany.

    2.The VISA system has to cover all aspects of immigration and where the job market is concerned, it mostly does. Where this has fallen down, is that now we aint in the EU, the cheap labour cannot come here and claim all the benefits that the nationals do anymore.
    Not our problem it doesn't suit their gimme all lifestyle and its a wage structure thing.
    Someone coming here claiming housing benefit. child benefit,healthcare etc, whilst working minimum wage isn't adding to the treasury. That is exactly what was happening before. Yes for some industrialists, it helped, but for others it didn't as it impacted their quality of life.
    But if we need seasonal workers, something needs to be worked out.
    An example would be, Germany in the 70s needed workers and let them work, not paying tax. Your seasonal workers might accept that, blitzing the hours then going home after 4 months.

    2. Refugees- The refugee system is broken. I think we can all agree on that. So what do we do?
    a. Sort your own house out first. The back log is unacceptable and a claim for help or asylum should be done inside 2 weeks, not 2 years.
    This is a massive restructure in itself and needs some serious input.

    Fail and you are properly removed. Back to your point of origin/ back to your last point of departure/ or a neutral place like Rawanda.
    Accepted fine. Though things have to change-
    Single males are not going in hotels though. Those are for the vulnerable and children.
    Education programme for all as well, to make integration easier and cut down on trouble. Language/social skills/ law training/ethics
    We do not need to see a Sweden/Denmark/Germany problem getting hold here.

    b. A proper way of claiming asylum set up, without coming here first, unless invited.
    Be it a centre near an embassy abroad. Or a central european organisation, that is dealing with the bigger issue. Unless you have registered in Europe, don't even try that either. The channels have to be clear and paying crimianals to get your way, will not be tolerated, not will jumping into vehicles.

    Paid a gangster thousands to defeat that system , then jog on. That includes lorry jumpers and tunnel jumpers as well. You wasn't that vulnerable to have the money or time to cherry pick your destination.

    3. Asylum/ tempoary refuge
    The government needs to have an agreed number of places available for entry. This must be based on all costings/ services/ accomadation to be covered for.
    You can not deal fairly and humanely with any claimant, by over booking and exceeding your limits. Which is exactly whats happening now, despite what GL says.
    This is what grates me the most. This country for the last 100+ years, has been a rock of shelter for the vulnerable. But it is not a bottomless pit of space/money/ resources. Those we take in, need to be dealt with properly.
    Single men 18-35 do not have the right to outjump women and children in peril.

    4. Commitment. The Uk and EU. need to get their acts together.
    The EU borders are a joke, Too many get in by illicit means, through the porous outer borders. RNG boats acting as taxis, ferrying migrants from Areas, that don't even warrent help.

    The EU allows folks to travel too easily internally, once the outer rim is breeched. This is a SCHENGEN problem and their stubborn pride stops them doing something about it. It also allows failed or non true refugees the license to roam. The black market rises as does crime. Some of it seriously organised. Fail to get asylum there, they simply move on to another country and try their luck there.

    So, Europe needs to get together on this.
    EU needs to man up and agree its a problem. The ECHR is doing more interfering with sense than good.
    We have some countries taking in too many. Merkel starting this, with her cries of come unto me my children.
    Some taken next to nothing,( hint hint )Poland ./ Hungary.

    Europe has to collectively agree, that anyone found to not being genuine refugees/asylum seekers need detaining and deporting properly. It isn't happening enough. Just saying no then releasing them, is fuelling the influx. They think that, getting to Europe and you've cracked it. The opportunities are limitless. You don't have to be in the EU to have this, not matter how many zealots like Verhofstadt shout it.

    The UK and Europe does not owe the 3rd world a better life, just because yours is ****.
    People moaned at the foreign aid bugdget being cut? Funnily enough that it wasn't when we are spending £7million a day on hotel bills alone.

    I could have been harder, but that would require a complete brake putting on all of it.
    I'll get enough flak for what I've written

  3. #3
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    Jun 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    We're onto the old old subject again and its slidingslowly into handbags at dawn

    TTR and rA,try this:

    In 500 words,

    TTR explain how UK a) shows some compassion to those most 'at risk' from persecution and b) fills its many thousands (millions) of vacant job roles to kick the economy back into life WITHOUT a progressive immigration policy

    rA explain how we would fund an influx of maybe millions of varying degrees of ability/dependancy/lawfulness if we just opened our borders to anyone who wanted to come

    Genuine challenge.
    Fair enough, and really, really quickly. I know times are tough, and I’m actually not advocating opening our borders to ‘anyone who wants to come’, but honestly the hardships people in this country are having to endure do not compare with those experienced by the unfortunates who, usually through no fault of their own, risk their lives arriving here in small boats having already, in all probability already lost their possessions and, quite possibly, their families. There but for the grace of God and all that.

    We remain, although it is sometimes hard to believe, one of the wealthiest countries in the World and yet we are some way behind the likes of France, Germany and Spain (possibly Turkey too) in terms of the number of asylum seekers/refugees we accept. Of course we could all do without them...just as, materially speaking, we could also probably do without the old, the sick, the homeless and the disabled too. They are all an undoubted drain on our resources however we have to be better than that. It is our moral duty, in the same way as we give to charity, to show compassion and care to the weakest members of our society and refugees/asylum seekers are simply an extension of that in terms of being part of a global society.

    When times are tough we have not been slow to ‘find’ funds. Consider the money spent during the pandemic, not least the amount spent on furlough or, more recently, on funding and supporting the Ukraine in its fight against Russia. The money spent in connection with the pandemic was, by and large, spent on those who suddenly, again usually through no fault of their own, found themselves amongst the most vulnerable and the amount we have spent on opposing Putin shows that, when we have to, we can find the resources to help the vulnerable from other countries too...indeed the attitude to welcoming those from the Ukraine would seem to be in stark contrast to some people’s (eg TTR’s and the Home Secretary’s) to people who arrive via less conventional, more high profile, means.

    Finally, I accept that this shouldn’t be regarded as just a UK problem. It is a global issue and it would help enormously, just as it would with climate change, if the bigger players weren’t as distracted by other issues as they currently are. Unfortunately however that isn’t the way of the world at the moment and, in the meantime, we have a duty to play our part, a leading part hopefully, in trying to help the weakest in society and not treating those same desperate and vulnerable people as an inconvenient irritant to be moved on and abandoned at our earliest convenience. We have to do our fair share and, for once, lead by example again.

    As I say...very quick and off the top of my head but ‘challenge’ accepted.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Fair enough, and really, really quickly. I know times are tough, and I’m actually not advocating opening our borders to ‘anyone who wants to come’, but honestly the hardships people in this country are having to endure do not compare with those experienced by the unfortunates who, usually through no fault of their own, risk their lives arriving here in small boats having already, in all probability already lost their possessions and, quite possibly, their families. There but for the grace of God and all that.

    We remain, although it is sometimes hard to believe, one of the wealthiest countries in the World and yet we are some way behind the likes of France, Germany and Spain (possibly Turkey too) in terms of the number of asylum seekers/refugees we accept. Of course we could all do without them...just as, materially speaking, we could also probably do without the old, the sick, the homeless and the disabled too. They are all an undoubted drain on our resources however we have to be better than that. It is our moral duty, in the same way as we give to charity, to show compassion and care to the weakest members of our society and refugees/asylum seekers are simply an extension of that in terms of being part of a global society.

    When times are tough we have not been slow to ‘find’ funds. Consider the money spent during the pandemic, not least the amount spent on furlough or, more recently, on funding and supporting the Ukraine in its fight against Russia. The money spent in connection with the pandemic was, by and large, spent on those who suddenly, again usually through no fault of their own, found themselves amongst the most vulnerable and the amount we have spent on opposing Putin shows that, when we have to, we can find the resources to help the vulnerable from other countries too...indeed the attitude to welcoming those from the Ukraine would seem to be in stark contrast to some people’s (eg TTR’s and the Home Secretary’s) to people who arrive via less conventional, more high profile, means.

    Finally, I accept that this shouldn’t be regarded as just a UK problem. It is a global issue and it would help enormously, just as it would with climate change, if the bigger players weren’t as distracted by other issues as they currently are. Unfortunately however that isn’t the way of the world at the moment and, in the meantime, we have a duty to play our part, a leading part hopefully, in trying to help the weakest in society and not treating those same desperate and vulnerable people as an inconvenient irritant to be moved on and abandoned at our earliest convenience. We have to do our fair share and, for once, lead by example again.

    As I say...very quick and off the top of my head but ‘challenge’ accepted.
    That’s a lot about your ethos rA and very laudable (that’s sincere not sarcasm) and to summarise you’ll ‘find the money from somewhere’. I’ll let you off the massive word count over run, you should have been a journalist

  5. #5
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    Sep 2010
    Posts
    7,156
    Quote Originally Posted by Trickytreesreds View Post
    I have, if you read my posts.

    1. Stop all illegal migration. No compromise nothing. It is a governments job, to defend a nations borders and its citizens.
    We took 500 000 into our borders last year, most of them legally coming here for study/work.
    That was our choice. The VISA system is there to vet those workers/students and ensure the undesirables are kept out. EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD DOES THIS. This is not as Lineker described, an anti foreigner country like 1930's Germany.

    2.The VISA system has to cover all aspects of immigration and where the job market is concerned, it mostly does. Where this has fallen down, is that now we aint in the EU, the cheap labour cannot come here and claim all the benefits that the nationals do anymore.
    Not our problem it doesn't suit their gimme all lifestyle and its a wage structure thing.
    Someone coming here claiming housing benefit. child benefit,healthcare etc, whilst working minimum wage isn't adding to the treasury. That is exactly what was happening before. Yes for some industrialists, it helped, but for others it didn't as it impacted their quality of life.
    But if we need seasonal workers, something needs to be worked out.
    An example would be, Germany in the 70s needed workers and let them work, not paying tax. Your seasonal workers might accept that, blitzing the hours then going home after 4 months.

    2. Refugees- The refugee system is broken. I think we can all agree on that. So what do we do?
    a. Sort your own house out first. The back log is unacceptable and a claim for help or asylum should be done inside 2 weeks, not 2 years.
    This is a massive restructure in itself and needs some serious input.

    Fail and you are properly removed. Back to your point of origin/ back to your last point of departure/ or a neutral place like Rawanda.
    Accepted fine. Though things have to change-
    Single males are not going in hotels though. Those are for the vulnerable and children.
    Education programme for all as well, to make integration easier and cut down on trouble. Language/social skills/ law training/ethics
    We do not need to see a Sweden/Denmark/Germany problem getting hold here.

    b. A proper way of claiming asylum set up, without coming here first, unless invited.
    Be it a centre near an embassy abroad. Or a central european organisation, that is dealing with the bigger issue. Unless you have registered in Europe, don't even try that either. The channels have to be clear and paying crimianals to get your way, will not be tolerated, not will jumping into vehicles.

    Paid a gangster thousands to defeat that system , then jog on. That includes lorry jumpers and tunnel jumpers as well. You wasn't that vulnerable to have the money or time to cherry pick your destination.

    3. Asylum/ tempoary refuge
    The government needs to have an agreed number of places available for entry. This must be based on all costings/ services/ accomadation to be covered for.
    You can not deal fairly and humanely with any claimant, by over booking and exceeding your limits. Which is exactly whats happening now, despite what GL says.
    This is what grates me the most. This country for the last 100+ years, has been a rock of shelter for the vulnerable. But it is not a bottomless pit of space/money/ resources. Those we take in, need to be dealt with properly.
    Single men 18-35 do not have the right to outjump women and children in peril.

    4. Commitment. The Uk and EU. need to get their acts together.
    The EU borders are a joke, Too many get in by illicit means, through the porous outer borders. RNG boats acting as taxis, ferrying migrants from Areas, that don't even warrent help.

    The EU allows folks to travel too easily internally, once the outer rim is breeched. This is a SCHENGEN problem and their stubborn pride stops them doing something about it. It also allows failed or non true refugees the license to roam. The black market rises as does crime. Some of it seriously organised. Fail to get asylum there, they simply move on to another country and try their luck there.

    So, Europe needs to get together on this.
    EU needs to man up and agree its a problem. The ECHR is doing more interfering with sense than good.
    We have some countries taking in too many. Merkel starting this, with her cries of come unto me my children.
    Some taken next to nothing,( hint hint )Poland ./ Hungary.

    Europe has to collectively agree, that anyone found to not being genuine refugees/asylum seekers need detaining and deporting properly. It isn't happening enough. Just saying no then releasing them, is fuelling the influx. They think that, getting to Europe and you've cracked it. The opportunities are limitless. You don't have to be in the EU to have this, not matter how many zealots like Verhofstadt shout it.

    The UK and Europe does not owe the 3rd world a better life, just because yours is ****.
    People moaned at the foreign aid bugdget being cut? Funnily enough that it wasn't when we are spending £7million a day on hotel bills alone.

    I could have been harder, but that would require a complete brake putting on all of it.
    I'll get enough flak for what I've written
    So you are more ‘uncompromising’ (some might say callous) than rA but do include some practical steps. However, successive hordes of politicians have failed to convert those steps into action

    So rA has no practical steps and TTR has no chance of implementing his. Not an easy subject is it?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    So you are more ‘uncompromising’ (some might say callous) than rA but do include some practical steps. However, successive hordes of politicians have failed to convert those steps into action

    So rA has no practical steps and TTR has no chance of implementing his. Not an easy subject is it?
    Yep...fair comment and I should have read the question more carefully...’twas ever thus.
    Rather be ‘laudable’ than ‘callous’ though. Ding...dong.

    P.S. I thought I came in just under although I didn’t actually count!
    Last edited by ramAnag; 13-03-2023 at 06:45 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Yep...fair comment and I should have read the question more carefully...’twas ever thus.
    Rather be ‘laudable’ than ‘callous’ though. Ding...dong.

    P.S. I thought I came in just under although I didn’t actually count!
    So moving on, do you (or anyone) think U.K. should just open the borders to all comers? It’s worth knocking off the issues one at a time, and that’s the extreme liberal viewpoint, happy to start there

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    So moving on, do you (or anyone) think U.K. should just open the borders to all comers? It’s worth knocking off the issues one at a time, and that’s the extreme liberal viewpoint, happy to start there
    No.

  9. #9
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    Small Boats etc solution

    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    No.
    OK it seems TTR's gone for his Farleys Rusks (only kidding TTR and maybe you dont even remember them) so do you rA (or anyone else) have an even incomplete list of those who should NOT be allowed in? I'll even start with known criminals, but even then it gets tricky, because do we treat a murderer the same as a shoplifter? And what about if the conviction is spent?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    So you are more ‘uncompromising’ (some might say callous) than rA but do include some practical steps. However, successive hordes of politicians have failed to convert those steps into action

    So rA has no practical steps and TTR has no chance of implementing his. Not an easy subject is it?
    Sorry, had to eat, not Farleys either.

    My points are dependant on the politicians having the gumption and will to take it all serious.
    But they don't/haven't

    Blair and Brown opened the flood gates.
    Immigration rocketed and the UK started to become an attractive draw.
    Since then Tories have failed to adapt or plug the issues at hand.
    The criminals have seen an opportunity and the levels have risen. It is no coincidence, since Germany/Sweden /Denmark got tougher, the focus has shifted to us. Those countries for example, didn't even give Albainians the time of day, how the hell have we?
    By the migrants own admission, France gives them bugger all and the French themselves say our benefits, black market jobs are too atttractive.

    I blame our politicians for all this. We are now in a situation we should not be in. Instead of dealing with this in small steps. The axe has to be swung hard.

    NB criminals are too protected by the ECHR. Something has to change.
    As I said earlier. The known criminal who was being deported got off, lawyers and leading Labour party politicians stepping in.
    What happens? he kills someone else.

    It isn't the first time either. Break the law in other countries, if you're lucky you get jail and a free flight home. We can't even do that
    Last edited by Trickytreesreds; 13-03-2023 at 08:02 PM.

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