Hamas o/t

[Omegstrat6]

I've long had a lot of sympathy for Palestinians but the actions of Hamas in targeting innocent civilians is both heinous and difficult to fathom in terms of what they expect to achieve.

A glance at any map of Israel today compared with that of 1949 quickly shows how much land Israel has illegally appropriated over the years, mostly enabled by the West either turning a blind eye due to Cold War considerations or else the US actively supporting it. There had been hopes that things might ease but the rise of Benjamin Netanyahu has only made the situation worse and things have been brewing for a couple of years now.

Whilst it is clear that Iran actively supports Hamas, it is far from clear that these latest attacks will draw them into a full blown war with Israel so difficult to see what Hamas thought they would achieve other than Israel now retaliating with the virtual destruction of Gaza and thousands of more innocent lives lost.

Easy and right to condemn Hamas but I think all countries should also be mindful of how this situation came about that allowed an increasingly extremist Islamic regime to come to power in the first place. Just hope that Egypt or whoever can try and broker something before this escalates even further and drags in other countries. Dangerous and sad times.

[kettering_baggie]

It is so, so depressing that yet again we see the capacity that some humans have for inflicting death and misery on other humans. Will we ever learn? I fear that we will not. If you could clear out the so-called leaders and politicians from many countries, we would probably see that ordinarily folk (who have no aspirations of power, ‘leadership’ and influence) would get on with their lives with a far greater degree of harmony. As a race, we are progressing technologically but regressing morally.

[soulman101]

Bit of background on Israel and Palestine .
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...int_source=nba
My Dad Ist overseas deployment was Palestine in 1937

[DaveP67 is back!]

Hamas are terrorists and need to be treated as such, I feel for the innocent majority on both sides. It’s terribly tragic and a complex situation that was close to being resolved, if it wasn’t for the idiot Arafat the two party state might have worked, now all we have is never ending bloodshed.

[Omegstrat6]

Hamas certainly employ terrorism and their attack on innocent civilians was heinous but all these Western world leaders clamouring to join in with the "we stand with Israel " rhetoric need to be mindful of how Israel has treated Palestinians for decades. What a surprise too that having had Trump come out and try and make it all about him, we now have our own Cruela Braverman coming out and advising chief constables that the act of waving a Palestinian flag should now be considered a criminal offence, as should waving a Swastika. Obviously she is equating Nazi Germany with Palestine. She really is a piece of work.

[9goals2hattricks3pen]

Hamas certainly employ terrorism and their attack on innocent civilians was heinous but all these Western world leaders clamouring to join in with the "we stand with Israel " rhetoric need to be mindful of how Israel has treated Palestinians for decades. What a surprise too that having had Trump come out and try and make it all about him, we now have our own Cruela Braverman coming out and advising chief constables that the act of waving a Palestinian flag should now be considered a criminal offence, as should waving a Swastika. Obviously she is equating Nazi Germany with Palestine. She really is a piece of work.

Don't agree with all you have written

She is not 'equating Nazi Germany with Palestine' she is equating Nazis with Hamas which is very different.

In the 30's Germans voted Hitler to power in free and fair elections. Something they wouldn't see again for a while.

In 2005 the people of Gaza voted Hamas to power in free and fair elections. Something they haven't seen since.

Just to make it clear I too think Braverman is a nasty piece of work but even they occasionally get something right

[Omegstrat6]

Don't agree with all you have written

She is not 'equating Nazi Germany with Palestine' she is equating Nazis with Hamas which is very different.

In the 30's Germans voted Hitler to power in free and fair elections. Something they wouldn't see again for a while.

In 2005 the people of Gaza voted Hamas to power in free and fair elections. Something they haven't seen since.

Just to make it clear I too think Braverman is a nasty piece of work but even they occasionally get something right

I do understand Braverman's point that many of those people seen waving a Palestinian flag at this time are doing so to celebrate what they see as a victory for Palestine over Israel by these attacks when the reality is that Hamas have committed terrorist atrocities against innocents and the loss of lives on both sides should certainly be nothing to celebrate. Such flag waving is then nothing less than a form of goading of Israelis.

I also take your point about the similarity between Hamas and the Nazi Party in 30s Germany. You are dead right, Hamas were voted into power and since then have become increasingly extremist in their views and actions and many Palestinians under their regime in Gaza have lost a lot of the freedoms they once had. The only difference in one respect I suppose is that whilst their economic situation has also only worsened under Hamas, at least Hitler improved the economic situation of most Germans (provided they weren't Jewish of course).

What I meant was that I don't personally think that Hamas should be equated with Palestine. They are a militant, extremist, Palestinian group but surely not representative of all Palestinians. I know that you are saying that Braverman is equating the Nazis with Hamas and not with Palestine but I'm really not sure that she is making that distinction and, in doing so, is only adding fuel to the fire when politicians should surely be looking to de-escalate rather than inflame the situation.

There are some parallels between the situation in Israel/Palestine and the Troubles in Northern Ireland. The IRA were a terrorist organization using terrorist tactics and committing atrocities, but they didn't represent all Northern Irish Catholics nor all those who wanted a United Ireland. Lots of good documentaries on I-player recently about The Troubles with plenty of interviews with those from both sides. The one thing that stuck me most was how the rapid escalation to violence could have been avoided in the late 1960s if the British Government had only listened and dealt with the clear inequalities. One ex prominent IRA member states that in the late 60s the IRA was all but dead but that the ignoring of the civil rights movement and then Bloody Sunday suddenly saw it rise rapidly in power again with many disillusioned young men drawn to its ranks. Similarly, economic hardship and harsh treatment by Israel has swollen the ranks of Hamas and Islamic extremism has only made the situation worse.

Of course it is only right to condemn the actions of Hamas-but that doesn't mean that Israel's long mis-treatment of Palestinians should be forgotten or ignored. The right wing press are already using Hamas's actions as a reason to criticise those with pro-Palestinian sympathies and disingenuously playing the anti-Semitism card. Not helpful. With reports of attacks on Israel coming in from Lebanon now by Hezbollah just hope this conflict doesn't escalate further and drag more countries into a major war in the region. Sad times.😞

[regis80]

Don’t know enough in detail about this conflict but I thought the UK Rabbi who was on the BBC must be commended for how measured (not so knee jerk) for saying loss of lives on both sides, at a time when he could have been critical of one side was spot on. The loss of any life is always terrible, killing of innocent’s particularly at a festival - makes you wonder what a said world we live in. What’s annoyed me is MSM - just pumping out their story when it suits them. From what you see in other news outlets is that Palestinians being killed and held prisoners in their own country which led to this - this unfortunately is fuel for terrorists like Hamas. Combine that with Netanyahoos hard line, something like this is always going to happen. It’s unfair MSM pick it up at this stage.

[kettering_baggie]

The reports that I am hearing about the events of Saturday morning when the Hamas murderers went from house to house, killing everyone they found, are just about the worst things that I have heard in my lifetime; what sort of ‘human being’ decapitates babies? It is sickening, I can’t even contemplate the use of the word ‘fair’ in any of this. It sickens me that decent people have to share this planet with such evil scum. It is true that some humans just ain’t human!

[9goals2hattricks3pen]

Don’t know enough in detail about this conflict but I thought the UK Rabbi who was on the BBC must be commended for how measured (not so knee jerk) for saying loss of lives on both sides, at a time when he could have been critical of one side was spot on. The loss of any life is always terrible, killing of innocent’s particularly at a festival - makes you wonder what a said world we live in. What’s annoyed me is MSM - just pumping out their story when it suits them. From what you see in other news outlets is that Palestinians being killed and held prisoners in their own country which led to this - this unfortunately is fuel for terrorists like Hamas. Combine that with Netanyahoos hard line, something like this is always going to happen. It’s unfair MSM pick it up at this stage.

I do know a fair bit. For instance there has never been a country called Palestine in the whole of history. My understanding is the Romans gave the area the name Palestina. After they left the name pretty much disappeared.

Before Roman times there was a kingdom of Israel and a kingdom of Judah.

Then after WWI along come us good old Brits ever ready to get involved and not knowing what else to call this area of numerous tribes that had never had a national identity we now had a mandate to rule and revived the name Palestine. (Emphasis that is my understanding and if anyone knows differently I am all ears)

Can I ask a question. Is there anyone who believes that Israel didn't exist and there was a state of Palestine it would be any more stable than the basket cases that are in the area now? Hamas in Gaza is Sunni and Hezbollahi n Lebanon is Shia and they don't exactly see eye to eye. The destruction of Israel is about all they agree on. And then you have Fatah on the West Bank. The reason the Arabs lost in 1947 when they had overwhelming advantages is they spent as much time fighting amongst themselves as they did Jews. I envisage another Syria or Lebanon.

I have visited Israel and spent time in Arab towns, the West Bank and Jerusalem only a few months after there had been 'trouble' What surprised me was how everyone got on. In Jerusalem we moved from Christian to Jewish to Arab quarter as did the locals without any checks.

It needs Regis' Rabbi and a Palestinian with the vision of Arafat for peace to have any chance. Meanwhile the extremists on both sides just get more extreme!