O/T please read

[Albionic68]

Oddly enough if you break their religions down you'd probably find they've got more in common with each other's basic belief systems than even they realise.

I've found that sometimes the people I despise the most have characteristics which reflect the worst aspects of my own personality.

For most stubborn hard headed belligerents there's an equally stubborn and hard headed antagonist.

[DaveP67 is back!]

Both sides hate each other and have little regard for anyone in the world other than themselves.
In some ways they deserve each other.
There is little to no grey areas between them.
I cannot support any of them or their proxies, both backward looking ideologies.

I don’t think that’s the case re Israel, the population is of course predominantly Jewish but most are as is the case here not practicing. As for being backwards
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...nd_discoveries
I agree re the Muslim world which translates fewer books that Greece alone..
I’ll let that rest.

[wbaliquidator]

I don’t think that’s the case re Israel, the population is of course predominantly Jewish but most are as is the case here not practicing. As for being backwards
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...nd_discoveries
I agree re the Muslim world which translates fewer books that Greece alone..
I’ll let that rest.

As 123 said this subject is binary for many.

[DaveP67 is back!]

As 123 said this subject is binary for many.

That’s why factual information is so important.

[9goals2hattricks3pen]

My own thoughts on the events of the last few days and the signing of this have already been nicely expressed by Omeg and 123.

For me there is only one solution

The Israelis have elected Netanyahu and his acolytes supported by extreme Orthodox Jews for the for the last 30 years or so but only by a small margin. Their greatest voter appeal has been their policies of giving Palestinians nothing (in fact taking more from them) is the best way to keep Israelis safe. October 7th has disproved that. If there was an election tomorrow the doves might just win.

Hamas as a government is unpopular with the majority of Gazans. They get the blame for much of their poverty. The biggest threat to Hamas is a revolt from within.

If Israel elects a party committed to giving enough to Palestinians that their lives would drastically improve in return for peace it might just happen. By giving up I mean no extension of Jewish settlements on the West Bank, indeed give up all they have grabbed in recent years, grant Palestinians living in Israel equal rights with Jews and most importantly commit to the Two State Solution and create a Palestinian State for the first time in history.

I won't hold my breath.

[DaveP67 is back!]

My own thoughts on the events of the last few days and the signing of this have already been nicely expressed by Omeg and 123.

For me there is only one solution

The Israelis have elected Netanyahu and his acolytes supported by extreme Orthodox Jews for the for the last 30 years or so but only by a small margin. Their greatest voter appeal has been their policies of giving Palestinians nothing (in fact taking more from them) is the best way to keep Israelis safe. October 7th has disproved that. If there was an election tomorrow the doves might just win.

Hamas as a government is unpopular with the majority of Gazans. They get the blame for much of their poverty. The biggest threat to Hamas is a revolt from within.

If Israel elects a party committed to giving enough to Palestinians that their lives would drastically improve in return for peace it might just happen. By giving up I mean no extension of Jewish settlements on the West Bank, indeed give up all they have grabbed in recent years, grant Palestinians living in Israel equal rights with Jews and most importantly commit to the Two State Solution and create a Palestinian State for the first time in history.

I won't hold my breath.

They have had the option and rejected it many times, all they see is a river to the sea annihilation of Israel. They categorically do not want it. Please fact check for yourselves if you don’t believe me. It’s a little old but the below explains it very well.
https://besacenter.org/palestinian-rejectionism/

[9goals2hattricks3pen]

They have had the option and rejected it many times, all they see is a river to the sea annihilation of Israel. They categorically do not want it. Please fact check for yourselves if you don’t believe me. It’s a little old but the below explains it very well.
https://besacenter.org/palestinian-rejectionism/

When you say 'they' who do you mean. The men of violence who are thriving on the present situation or the millions on both sides craving peace?

Before accepting this summary as being neutral it is important to note BESA are considered to be 'a right wing pro military' organisation. With my limited knowledge I was able to pick fault with their conclusions such as the Palestinian leader in 2008 stating the gaps between the two were too far '“I will wait until all the Israeli settlements have been frozen” is represented as an example of their reluctance to negotiate. Demanding that is I would think is a gimmee and they would require a hell of a lot more than that to be able to sell it to the locals.

I was there in 2010 and I can assure you there are plenty of Israelis who also believe they need to be more radical in what they are offering.

No one said it was going to be easy.

[Omegstrat6]

From my own understanding too, the BESA "think tank" is a centre to right leaning one which is also very pro-military and one which places a particular emphasis on nourishing Israel's long relationship with the US. There are around 50 other Israeli "think tanks" with various views on the thorny Israel/Palestine problem so don't know which ones actually have that great an influence on Israeli official policy but given Netanyahu's right wing stance it seems BESA would be one whose views would align more with his own.

The point is that many Israelis disagree with and dislike Netanyahu just as a great many Palestinians do not support Hamas. Sadly, it is the intransigence and extremism on both sides that is causing so many to suffer. The Islamic extremism of those who would want see Israel annihilated and "pushed out to the sea" is, of course, to be condemned (and is a reminder of the horrors of the Final Solution)-but is this reaction really to be wondered at given Israel's expansionist policy over many years and it's treatment of Palestinians?

[9goals2hattricks3pen]

How nice it is to have a proper debate on a very divisive topic without it descending into posters competing with each other to see who can chuck in the biggest insult. And we've stuck to the subject. More please.

[DaveP67 is back!]

How nice it is to have a proper debate on a very divisive topic without it descending into posters competing with each other to see who can chuck in the biggest insult. And we've stuck to the subject. More please.

I agree, it is divisive but a topic we all need to understand better, the consequences of this conflict will I think shape the world to come.