O/T please read

[regis80]

How would rate the coverage of this current war? Are our media outlets reporting this impartially and presenting harrowing experiences from both sides? All they ever do and so obsessed with us asking Palestinians to condemn the attacks. I think what happened on Oct 7 was the worst ever crime Hamas committed and this could well truly end them. However as we all know, this isn’t when this conflict started and this is what seems to anger many in the arab world. If you make this argument you get labelled anti semite or JC. The rift is even happening within the UN. You can’t say anything without fear of being cancelled and I think i’m seeing that on this forum (I may be wrong), journalist etc are being careful despite the so called ‘genocide’ and ‘ethnic cleansing’ that’s taking place.
This 7th Oct attack was warned about and yet it still happened.
This current israeli gov as many pointed out with its far right beliefs is one cause, with Hamas the other end.
Anyway, I’d like to know, is there some fear that people worry about being cancelled or losing jobs for supporting israeli gov? I’ve met my fair share of israelis in my life, found them to be very genuine and kind - i just don’t like that a party they are ruled by are now going out killing innocent palestinians as well as their own.

[wbaliquidator]

So many malevolent actors governing their respective countries and its very deep and far reaching.
What a coalition of evil, Russia, Noth Korea, Iran and all their proxies like Hamas.
They are stirring up quite a ****x storm. Russia of course is the driving force and has been for years. China is more subtle but could be included in the group.
Russia in particular sows division and confusion between us by every means possible. Influencing our elections, supporting any extreme political group be it right or left, any racial divides, any religious divides, using the media space to poison and distort our reality, so on and so on.
Israel and Saudi Arabia were due to sign an historic treaty next year. Basically, it was a simple declaration of acknowledgments and Saudi Arabia acknowledged that right of Israel to exist.
Now, who does not like this situation? …. Yes Iran.
I guess it’s always been part of our human nature that generally the most controlling, greedy, inconsiderate, violent, assertive, parochial, egotistical people get to govern us. Some of course are simply narcissistic, despotic psychopaths

[Omegstrat6]

As Israel's attacks on Gaza continue and Western leaders still steadfastly support them and refuse to call for a ceasefire the situation seems to be becoming increasingly perilous and the growing sympathy for the civilian population there is playing right into Hamas's hands (and Russia and China's to boot).

I totally understand the Israeli compunction to retaliate and destroy Hamas and the argument that, if they had done nothing, that Hamas could simply have continued to strike at them across the border with Iranian supplied weapons.

I also get that Hamas is deeply inbeded within the civilian population of Gaza and uses buildings such as schools and hospitals as cover. It is going to be an incredibly difficult task for Israel to neutralize legitimate targets without also killing a great many innocent Palestinians and warfare amongst the rubble and ruins is -as Stalingrad and other examples from history have amply proven-going to be both slow and costly. Both these realities mean that the longer their operation goes on, the more support Hamas extremists are able to whip up in Muslim communities across the world and the more pressure is applied to the West on their stance.

Surely, for the West-particularly the US-to continue it's refusal not to call for a ceasefire will only exacerbate already growing divisions in the Middle East. There comes a point when the "refusal to negotiate with terrorists" policy fails and becomes very much a "cutting off your nose to spite your face" one. The aim, surely, must be as much about securing the safety of the hostages taken and preventing further loss of innocent civilians lives as it is about seeking revenge. The thorny subject of borders and further debates on a possible 2 state solution can all follow after. Some of the heat needs to be taken out of this situation and quickly before it truly explodes across the region and further.

Continued intransigence by both sides will achieve nothing other than further bloodshed. While Islamic extremists in Iran and elsewhere are glad of this opportunity to fuel their cause and Putin stands on the sidelines, doubtless rubbing his hands with glee, the West (and US particularly) need to wake up and realise that their actions now are critical. Only perhaps strong words from Washington to call for a ceasefire now may be able to dissuade the Israelis from their current attacks and bring a pause for both more effective humanitarian aid to be delivered to the area and an opportunity for negotiation. The alternative scenarios aren't good

[wbaliquidator]

Omegstrat6 and others have posted very considered and balanced views on this complex subject.
Problem is that it appears that humanity as a whole is more than keen to slide back into the primal swamp at times. Only last night a lynch mob of marauding men in Dagastan stormed the airport when news of plane on route from Israel to Moscow had landed to refuel. I watched in horror as the telegram channels showed locals hunting down Jews just like the 1930 brown shirts did in Germany. Let’s hope this behaviour does not infest the minds and hearts of others elsewhere, although I’m not hopeful.

I really fear now that all of the deep divisions within all human race are being stirred up deliberately and the momentum may be difficult if not impossible to stop.
Expect North Korea next….

[Omegstrat6]

Sadly, there seems to be an increase in attacks on the the Jewish community in this country now. Regis asked about whether there is a growing "cancel" culture around supporting Israel. Where I live there is no noticeable Jewish community nor an especially large Muslim one so I personally haven't seen evidence of this but can imagine it being the case in areas which do have larger Muslim populations.

Wouldn't it be nice if more people tried to understand this complex situation better rather than simply lump all Jews together and assume that they all support right wing Zionist expansionism or else assume all Muslims support Islamic extremist groups. Sadly though, you seem to be right and far too many of humanity lend credence to Freud's "Narcissism of small differences" theory or that of Dawkin's "Selfish gene". 😞

[westcountryvillain]

It will never end whilst there is a stated aim of removing Israel from the map and the annihilation of jews, the callous disregard for innocents is disgraceful, blind hatred.

Jews seem to come in for a lot of hate and not solely from sympathisers with Palestine, why is that so?

[DaveP67 is back!]

It will never end whilst there is a stated aim of removing Israel from the map and the annihilation of jews, the callous disregard for innocents is disgraceful, blind hatred.

Jews seem to come in for a lot of hate and not solely from sympathisers with Palestine, why is that so?

History paints them as the villains when they have never been anything but the opposite, murderers of Jesus, etc, etc, then in the Middle Ages they could only perform certain jobs, money lending being one, this of course lead to more stereotypes and on the circle turns, I ask you this where would you rather your wife or daughter walked at night, in a Jewish or Muslim neighbourhood?

[Omegstrat6]

History paints them as the villains when they have never been anything but the opposite, murderers of Jesus, etc, etc, then in the Middle Ages they could only perform certain jobs, money lending being one, this of course lead to more stereotypes and on the circle turns, I ask you this where would you rather your wife or daughter walked at night, in a Jewish or Muslim neighbourhood?

Your last point is undoubtedly true-but whilst it is undeniable that there have been, and remain, both Muslim grooming gangs and Muslim criminal gangs, there is also the grave and very real danger of racial stereotyping in this country.

A recent Home Office report from 2020 raised this and showed that the reality was that such grooming gangs in this country were "overwhelmingly" white. Similarly, a 2022 report from the University of Birmingham, claims (unsurprisingly) that Muslim communities are the most discriminated against in the UK. The report shows, for example, 1 in 4 holding what it calls "conspiracy" beliefs about Sharia Law no go areas, and 36% of the white British population believing that Islam threatens their way of life. The vast majority of those that hold such views are older, educated, sections of the population that are most likely to be Tory voters. Over a quarter of the sample views used see Muslims in a negative light as opposed to around 8.5% holding negative views of the Jewish population and 6.4% of the Black population.

There is no evidence to support any of these levels of discrimination which is primarily the result of both inherited stereotyping and conspiracy theories (e.g. the Jewish cabal that secretly runs the world or Pakistani grooming gangs or lazy Blacks etc.) and the UK's predominantly right wing media. Whilst anti-Semitism is probably grounded in the same old tropes and prejudices that have been attached to them for centuries, that against Muslims has more perhaps to do with global Islamic extremist groups whether ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah etc. and reports of grooming gangs in the north.

Such prejudices do not come from nowhere and it cannot be denied that there are powerful Jewish businessmen (particularly in the US) nor Islamic extremists or Muslim criminal or grooming gangs. But none of these represent the vast majority of these communities in this country. There are far more white, non Jewish and non Muslim powerful businessmen, grooming gangs and criminal gangs in this country. Sadly though, Freud's "Narcissism of small differences" holds true and most people are afraid, and therefore too often discriminatory, towards those who are different than themselves (and this, of course, applies to people of all colours whether White, Black or Brown). Religious or political beliefs frequently only exacerbate the situation.

[DaveP67 is back!]

Your last point is undoubtedly true-but whilst it is undeniable that there have been, and remain, both Muslim grooming gangs and Muslim criminal gangs, there is also the grave and very real danger of racial stereotyping in this country.

A recent Home Office report from 2020 raised this and showed that the reality was that such grooming gangs in this country were "overwhelmingly" white. Similarly, a 2022 report from the University of Birmingham, claims (unsurprisingly) that Muslim communities are the most discriminated against in the UK. The report shows, for example, 1 in 4 holding what it calls "conspiracy" beliefs about Sharia Law no go areas, and 36% of the white British population believing that Islam threatens their way of life. The vast majority of those that hold such views are older, educated, sections of the population that are most likely to be Tory voters. Over a quarter of the sample views used see Muslims in a negative light as opposed to around 8.5% holding negative views of the Jewish population and 6.4% of the Black population.

There is no evidence to support any of these levels of discrimination which is primarily the result of both inherited stereotyping and conspiracy theories (e.g. the Jewish cabal that secretly runs the world or Pakistani grooming gangs or lazy Blacks etc.) and the UK's predominantly right wing media. Whilst anti-Semitism is probably grounded in the same old tropes and prejudices that have been attached to them for centuries, that against Muslims has more perhaps to do with global Islamic extremist groups whether ISIS, Hamas, Hezbollah etc. and reports of grooming gangs in the north.

Such prejudices do not come from nowhere and it cannot be denied that there are powerful Jewish businessmen (particularly in the US) nor Islamic extremists or Muslim criminal or grooming gangs. But none of these represent the vast majority of these communities in this country. There are far more white, non Jewish and non Muslim powerful businessmen, grooming gangs and criminal gangs in this country. Sadly though, Freud's "Narcissism of small differences" holds true and most people are afraid, and therefore too often discriminatory, towards those who are different than themselves (and this, of course, applies to people of all colours whether White, Black or Brown). Religious or political beliefs frequently only exacerbate the situation.

You are correct about stereotyping, sadly the 1% will always cause a distortion in our perceptions. With regards to the areas, people coming to a new country tend to seek out their own, or as happens immigrants end up in the poorest areas with poor outlooks, this of course fuels the preachers of hate against our way of life.
The way I see it isn’t one of race it’s one of ideology, if you follow the extreme forms of Islam chant from the river to the sea etc then you have no place here and are my enemy. We need to stop tolerating this.

[Omegstrat6]

You are correct about stereotyping, sadly the 1% will always cause a distortion in our perceptions. With regards to the areas, people coming to a new country tend to seek out their own, or as happens immigrants end up in the poorest areas with poor outlooks, this of course fuels the preachers of hate against our way of life.
The way I see it isn’t one of race it’s one of ideology, if you follow the extreme forms of Islam chant from the river to the sea etc then you have no place here and are my enemy. We need to stop tolerating this.

In total agreement with you in the absolute condemnation of those calling for the destruction of Israel and the elimination of Jewish communities in the region. However, I genuinely believe that there are also many-Alexei Sayle amongst them-who honestly mean freedom for Palestinians (as well as for Christians and Jews) "between the river and the sea". As ever, however, it seems that the extremists have hi-jacked the phrase which has come to be interpreted, certainly by most of the media, as meaning the former. As such, those who chant it but genuinely mean differently, should be far more mindful if using it and express their views more clearly.

Its one thing to be critical of Zionist expansionism and Israeli treatment of Palestinians but really worrying and saddening to see the increase in anti-Semitic attacks on Jewish communities here at the moment. As you say, that 1 % stuck in the intransigencies and hatred of their beliefs and ideologies.