Reading

[ramAnag]

No idea what ‘Stygian’ means but lovely to hear Charles Shaar Murray’s name crop up. A real ‘blast from the past’. Is he still going strong?

Agreeing with much of GP’s assessment, but surely the size of our crowds over the last three seasons (all until now - perhaps - ultimately disappointing) must count for something. I think our average crowd last season was 27,000...bigger than anticipated and surely worth some reward.
This season we are on target for at least a repeat of that figure and, as GP acknowledges, the lower down the ‘pyramid’ a club is the more important that becomes, in other words...our attendance figures are crucial to the club’s well being.
Maybe fans do get excited and, in some cases, unrealistic...but they are not the ‘root cause’ of Mel Morris becoming irresponsible, they will not be to blame if we don’t strengthen appropriately in this window and I doubt very much if they are responsible for Reading’s fall from grace either.

P.S. Looked it up...know now...nice!

[Geoff Parkstone]

"P.S. Looked it up...know now...nice!"

And you the English teacher 😄 ! Not a scholar of classics I guess..... I'd best not use the word lethal (λήθη) on that basis either, for fear of flummoxing you

[Andy_Faber]

No idea what ‘Stygian’ means but lovely to hear Charles Shaar Murray’s name crop up. A real ‘blast from the past’. Is he still going strong!

At the risk of upsetting those who question my circle of acquaintances (I’m an accountant so I have no friends) CSM and I converse occasionally on Social Media and I’ve met him twice, once only a couple of years ago at a Wilko Johnson related event. He was interested/pleased that I had an MC5 review of his framed and on the wall of my office, and subsequently interested/nonplussed that I had a mural on my ****age bedroom wall of an album cover which, it turns out, was modelled by Anna Chen, who later became a pro journalist and CSM’s partner…,

Check out Anna’s writing you may find it interesting, her story of USA’s ‘war’ on China is a good recent one

[Geoff Parkstone]

Just to square the circle and return the thread to subject, Charles Shaar Murray was born and raised in......Reading

[ramAnag]

"P.S. Looked it up...know now...nice!"

And you the English teacher �� ! Not a scholar of classics I guess..... I'd best not use the word lethal (λήθη) on that basis either, for fear of flummoxing you

There wasn’t a lot of call for the ‘classics’ from the kids I taught and my Latin was slightly worse than my maths! Well done for keeping us on topic though.

P.S. I’m impressed AF...by you knowing CSM, more than - just to be clear - your ****age bedroom wall.

[swaledale]

No idea what ‘Stygian’ means but lovely to hear Charles Shaar Murray’s name crop up. A real ‘blast from the past’. Is he still going strong?

Agreeing with much of GP’s assessment, but surely the size of our crowds over the last three seasons (all until now - perhaps - ultimately disappointing) must count for something. I think our average crowd last season was 27,000...bigger than anticipated and surely worth some reward.
This season we are on target for at least a repeat of that figure and, as GP acknowledges, the lower down the ‘pyramid’ a club is the more important that becomes, in other words...our attendance figures are crucial to the club’s well being.
Maybe fans do get excited and, in some cases, unrealistic...but they are not the ‘root cause’ of Mel Morris becoming irresponsible, they will not be to blame if we don’t strengthen appropriately in this window and I doubt very much if they are responsible for Reading’s fall from grace either.

P.S. Looked it up...know now...nice!

gg

[swaledale]

No idea what ‘Stygian’ means but lovely to hear Charles Shaar Murray’s name crop up. A real ‘blast from the past’. Is he still going strong?

Agreeing with much of GP’s assessment, but surely the size of our crowds over the last three seasons (all until now - perhaps - ultimately disappointing) must count for something. I think our average crowd last season was 27,000...bigger than anticipated and surely worth some reward.
This season we are on target for at least a repeat of that figure and, as GP acknowledges, the lower down the ‘pyramid’ a club is the more important that becomes, in other words...our attendance figures are crucial to the club’s well being.
Maybe fans do get excited and, in some cases, unrealistic...but they are not the ‘root cause’ of Mel Morris becoming irresponsible, they will not be to blame if we don’t strengthen appropriately in this window and I doubt very much if they are responsible for Reading’s fall from grace either.

P.S. Looked it up...know now...nice!

rA the fans reward is as follows.

1. They still have a club to support, Clowes acquisition of Derby has cost him an est £55 million.

2. The revenue has to support the ongoing costs of running the club and the academy, (£6 mill per annum) and (£1.5 mill per annum) respectively.

3. The club have recruited players that other clubs in L1 couldn't due to being able to pay higher wages (within the L1 cap) thats reflected in the performance of Derby in L1 to date.

So yes there will be a budget for transfers, but it will be limited given Clowes isn't looking to pour endless millions of his own money into the club.

As for fans and their expectations and demands - lets not forget that many were calling for Warne to be sacked, which would have cost another £2 million or so to pay him and his staff off. Thank goodness Clowes is a shrewd operator and has stuck with his plan.

It may come down to the owners and board decisions in the end, but fan pressure to spend is often hard to resist and as you say, if they don't get what they demand, will not show patience and understanding but vote with their feet and deny the club revenue by not attending games.

Not many Derby or Reading fans were moaning about millions being spent on players which ultimately led to the situation the clubs found themselves in either.

[ramAnag]

rA the fans reward is as follows.

1. They still have a club to support, Clowes acquisition of Derby has cost him an est £55 million.

2. The revenue has to support the ongoing costs of running the club and the academy, (£6 mill per annum) and (£1.5 mill per annum) respectively.

3. The club have recruited players that other clubs in L1 couldn't due to being able to pay higher wages (within the L1 cap) thats reflected in the performance of Derby in L1 to date.

So yes there will be a budget for transfers, but it will be limited given Clowes isn't looking to pour endless millions of his own money into the club.

As for fans and their expectations and demands - lets not forget that many were calling for Warne to be sacked, which would have cost another £2 million or so to pay him and his staff off. Thank goodness Clowes is a shrewd operator and has stuck with his plan.

It may come down to the owners and board decisions in the end, but fan pressure to spend is often hard to resist and as you say, if they don't get what they demand, will not show patience and understanding but vote with their feet and deny the club revenue by not attending games.

Not many Derby or Reading fans were moaning about millions being spent on players which ultimately led to the situation the clubs found themselves in either.

1. True and true.
2. True...never suggested otherwise.
3. Unsure of your point. Haven’t you been repeatedly telling us that we are where we are because we’ve only been able to sign players of limited quality?

No one, least of all me, has suggested Clowes should spend ‘endless millions of his own money’. The only figure I mentioned was ‘half a million’!

The ‘proof of the pudding’ will be where we are at the end of the season or possibly how we look like coping under Warne in the Championship next season. Clowes may still have to show the ‘ruthlessness’ he showed with Rosenior and have to cough up compensation.

Getting to the crux of the matter...of course not many Derby or Reading fans were ‘moaning about millions being spent on players’. ‘Enjoy the ride’ was the cry and fans aren’t to blame for that. Those in charge have a level of wealth which ordinary fans can scarcely comprehend and I’m sure, like me, you welcomed Mel Morris - a local long term Rams supporting mega wealthy benefactor. What could possibly go wrong?
We were of course soon to find out, but ultimately it was MM’s apparent disregard for the rules, as much as any unwise signings, which has cost Derby and that wasn’t the fault of the fans.

So what are we ‘debating’? Your assertion that the ‘root cause’ of our (and Reading’s) demise is the fans and your ‘if the cap fits’ jibe at me. They’re both ludicrous assertions. From MUFC and Chelsea to Derby, Reading and even Bury the common denominator is the failings of ownership not the frustrations or expectations of the fans. As regards my personal stance...there are times when you have to ‘speculate to accumulate’. Now, imo, is one of those occasions but I have only ever favoured wise and affordable additions. Tbh, I haven’t seen too many of those recently, but suggesting (last October!) that £500,000 should no longer be beyond us is hardly asking Mr. Clowes to start spending ‘endless millions’ is it?

[swaledale]

1. True and true.
2. True...never suggested otherwise.
3. Unsure of your point. Haven’t you been repeatedly telling us that we are where we are because we’ve only been able to sign players of limited quality?

No one, least of all me, has suggested Clowes should spend ‘endless millions of his own money’. The only figure I mentioned was ‘half a million’!

The ‘proof of the pudding’ will be where we are at the end of the season or possibly how we look like coping under Warne in the Championship next season. Clowes may still have to show the ‘ruthlessness’ he showed with Rosenior and have to cough up compensation.

Getting to the crux of the matter...of course not many Derby or Reading fans were ‘moaning about millions being spent on players’. ‘Enjoy the ride’ was the cry and fans aren’t to blame for that. Those in charge have a level of wealth which ordinary fans can scarcely comprehend and I’m sure, like me, you welcomed Mel Morris - a local long term Rams supporting mega wealthy benefactor. What could possibly go wrong?
We were of course soon to find out, but ultimately it was MM’s apparent disregard for the rules, as much as any unwise signings, which has cost Derby and that wasn’t the fault of the fans.

So what are we ‘debating’? Your assertion that the ‘root cause’ of our (and Reading’s) demise is the fans and your ‘if the cap fits’ jibe at me. They’re both ludicrous assertions. From MUFC and Chelsea to Derby, Reading and even Bury the common denominator is the failings of ownership not the frustrations or expectations of the fans. As regards my personal stance...there are times when you have to ‘speculate to accumulate’. Now, imo, is one of those occasions but I have only ever favoured wise and affordable additions. Tbh, I haven’t seen too many of those recently, but suggesting (last October!) that £500,000 should no longer be beyond us is hardly asking Mr. Clowes to start spending ‘endless millions’ is it?

So you ignore the fact that Clowes has already and continues to pay many millions of pounds to buy and run the club and pay players wages and then say paying £500K for a transfer is hardly asking Clowes to spend endless millions????

So one transfer at say £500K, plus agents fees plus a £10k week salary so £520K per annum equals an expenditure of in the region of a £1million and you want, what 3 players? And you maintain the club should with its fan base just be able to go out and do the deals?

Precisely why I maintain that fans financial illiteracy is a contribution to the clubs getting into trouble.

My comment re the quality of players was in response to your moans about the quality of the football. The players we have are on paper better quality in comparison to others in this league (in fact on the pitch as well given our league position) but logic suggests that they wouldn't be playing for Derby in League 1 if their ability enabled them to earn a higher salary with a championship club, its not hard to figure that one out.

Up until this point Derby have not been able to pay a transfer fee, so buying say a good young talent or a promising player that could just improve the overall squad has been an issue. But the point remains that we have acquired players on free transfers that came because Derby could pay higher wages than other clubs in League 1.

So not sure why your puzzled by that, unless your view about the relative success and performances of some of the players is colouring your judgement here, but then one you ignore the contribution they make as squad players and that there are plenty of examples of clubs can pay millions on transfer fees and salaries for players that never seem to perform for the club. Its a gamble as you should know.

There you go again, if we don't get promotion, Clowes should look at Warne's position, though you have no idea about what targets Warne is working to, they could be promotion within 3 years, 4 years, and keep the club competitive and challenging for promotion within the budget allowed. A reasonable fan with a hint of realism would say Warne is on track, the more deluded ones will be calling for millions spent on sacking wane and getting an other with no guarantee things will change and spending millions on players again with no guarantee.

Anyway all I was doing was explaining where the revenue from those thousands of fans attending matches goes as it seemed you thought buying a player was the only cost!!

[ramAnag]

Then again...I haven’t suggested paying £500k on ONE transfer in this window. We’ve agreed that two or three additions is what is needed and you’ve mentioned Smith, Blackett-Taylor and possibly AN.Other. The first two aren’t going to come on loan, so how do you think we’re going to get them without spending in the region of £500k?

IF we don’t get promotion - from the position we’re in for the second year running - then it’s obvious Clowes has to ‘look at Warne’s position’.
He was brought in as a specialist at getting clubs out of L1. If he fails, and I hope he doesn’t, then he won’t have been all he’s cracked up to be on the basis of his achievements at Rotherham...and questions will inevitably be asked as regards the progress he’s made over what will then be the best part of two seasons.

I see you’re now accepting fans’ ‘financial illiteracy’ as a ‘contribution’ rather than a ‘root cause’. Glad you’ve come round.