Election Year or Fear!

[Geoff Parkstone]

For my tuppence worth, racism, xenophobia etc needs to be called out but there are ways to do it effectively. Simply insulting the perpetrator by calling them gammon, Nazi etc isn't effective. It just loses credibility.

Swale seems to be capable of a rational debate but too often resorts to insulting people within that context. This detracts from the argument and is counter productive.

We've seen it in all differences of opinion involving him - including tirades against most of us, including you, rA. It is why I, for one , have now stopped taking him seriously and believe him just to be an over the top wind up merchant.

[Trickytreesreds]

So…do you believe that Swale enjoys a ‘luxurious lifestyle’…and that all Labour supporters should live in poorer areas and watch/read ‘low brow’ media? That would be odd wouldn’t it? What do you mean by ‘highbrow media’ anyway?

I’ll accept that ‘gammon, little Englander and Nazi’ are generally unhelpful terms, but you, and those others I’ve mentioned, do display racist, xenophobic and bigoted characteristics. Doesn’t seem unreasonable to point that out, imo.

No, wrong.
No one ever says to me, that is racist. No one ever says you cannot say that.
I do have a problem with Islam, but Islam is not a race, lets be clear about that.
You take the stance, that a different ethnicity to me, cannot be criticised, as it will be deemed "racist". That in itself is a problem. The grooming gangs proved that,
The xenophobe label, makes me piss myself. A person who strongly dislikes or fear foreigners? Engaged to a Thai girl, last long term girl friend was a native Canadian Indian. Yearh, I hate foreigners.

I call out what I see. You may not like that, but that is the way it is in a free country. It seems there are many here, that want such opinions shut down. The Scottish government is doing its best to accomodate that. Blasphemy laws will be next. B e careful how much of this you allow to continue.

BTW, I notice again that all your examples are particularly biased against white people. You even mention Diane Abbott getting some come here way, after every thing she slurs around. Oh the irony.

[MadAmster]

Tricky, most grooming gangs are white Caucasian males not Muslim immigrants or their descendants...

What is the motivation of that majority and why do they not receive the same kind of stick from you that the Muslims do?

[Andy_Faber]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;40471873]I wasn’t asking ‘on behalf’ of anyone. I just didn’t understand.
I’ve always been puzzled by the expression ‘champagne socialist/lefty’…it’s as if having any sort of left of centre political stance should involve living like one of the old working class from a D.H. Lawrence novel and not doing is somehow betraying your left wing sympathies.

[QUOTE]

My response was personal to Swale, I find bragging off about wealth to be lacking in good taste but if the cap fits

As I said, views of any leaning are fine by me if supported by reasoned argument and respect for others and being left leaning doesn’t equate to any particular ‘class’ Any more

[Andy_Faber]

As for the ‘shutdown’ thing. Is that what it is? If someone takes offence at being called racist isn’t it an invitation to explain yourself further rather than a ‘shutdown’. Is Lee Anderson guilty of racism? I think so…yes. Is Tricky sometimes guilty of racism towards Muslims? In my opinion…again yes. Is that Tory donor, whose name I forget, but who said what he said about Diane Abbott guilty of a particularly stupid example of racism…imo, obviously and dangerously.
That’s not a ‘shutdown’ it’s an invitation to explain themselves further…if they’re capable of it.
is?

You’re missing the point, I’ll just repeat that it’s not only a lazy tactic, but it’s also becoming a bit of a busted flush, as those accused of such slurs are a) fed up with it and b) arguing their case in most cases in a more reasoned way than those offering the slur.

So I agree it’s nota shutdown because it’s no longer working at a pleb level

[ramAnag]

No, wrong.
No one ever says to me, that is racist. No one ever says you cannot say that.
I do have a problem with Islam, but Islam is not a race, lets be clear about that.
You take the stance, that a different ethnicity to me, cannot be criticised, as it will be deemed "racist". That in itself is a problem. The grooming gangs proved that,
The xenophobe label, makes me piss myself. A person who strongly dislikes or fear foreigners? Engaged to a Thai girl, last long term girl friend was a native Canadian Indian. Yearh, I hate foreigners.

I call out what I see. You may not like that, but that is the way it is in a free country. It seems there are many here, that want such opinions shut down. The Scottish government is doing its best to accomodate that. Blasphemy laws will be next. B e careful how much of this you allow to continue.

BTW, I notice again that all your examples are particularly biased against white people. You even mention Diane Abbott getting some come here way, after every thing she slurs around. Oh the irony.

What does ‘No wrong’ refer to? I asked if you thought Swale lived a ‘luxurious lifestyle’, what ‘high brow media’ means and whether you think Labour supporters should always live in poorer conditions and all you can say is ‘no wrong’?

Let’s not hide behind the ‘Islam isn’t a race’ card either. You don’t accept the concept of Islamophobia so what’s left? You clearly have a fear of Muslims which translates into dislike. You regard Muslims as being synonymous with terrorism and organised child abuse. There is, of course, a grain of truth in that because there are, undeniably, Muslim terrorists and Muslim child abusers. However there are also terrorists and, as MA has correctly pointed out, child abusers from many other areas of society so why single just one out?

I don’t know how many times it has to be pointed out to you that having two relationships with ‘foreign’ women doesn’t preclude you from xenophobia. History is full of examples of ‘conquerors’ taking ***ual advantage of native/local women - and no, I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing at all - but your repeated negative comments about Muslims and other immigrants certainly outweigh the fact that you’ve had the two relationships you speak of.

As regards Diane Abbott…I’m not a fan either, although her constituents appear to be. However the comments aimed at her were simply stupid. Like Claude Davis being my all time least popular Derby player leading to me concluding we shouldn’t sign another black player…which would be utterly ridiculous and undeniably racist, on top of which the comments about her being shot were repellently irresponsible.

[ramAnag]

You’re missing the point, I’ll just repeat that it’s not only a lazy tactic, but it’s also becoming a bit of a busted flush, as those accused of such slurs are a) fed up with it and b) arguing their case in most cases in a more reasoned way than those offering the slur.

So I agree it’s nota shutdown because it’s no longer working at a pleb level

We’ll have to differ on me ‘missing the point’…but in the three cases I’ve cited they’re certainly not ‘arguing their cases in a more reasoned way’ than their accusers.

[Trickytreesreds]

Tricky, most grooming gangs are white Caucasian males not Muslim immigrants or their descendants...

What is the motivation of that majority and why do they not receive the same kind of stick from you that the Muslims do?

The difference is, the police/ council/social services do not try to cover up white grooming gangs,. In case it upsets the apple cart and they get labelled racist. Does this confuse you?

[Trickytreesreds]

What does ‘No wrong’ refer to? I asked if you thought Swale lived a ‘luxurious lifestyle’, what ‘high brow media’ means and whether you think Labour supporters should always live in poorer conditions and all you can say is ‘no wrong’?

Let’s not hide behind the ‘Islam isn’t a race’ card either. You don’t accept the concept of Islamophobia so what’s left? You clearly have a fear of Muslims which translates into dislike. You regard Muslims as being synonymous with terrorism and organised child abuse. There is, of course, a grain of truth in that because there are, undeniably, Muslim terrorists and Muslim child abusers. However there are also terrorists and, as MA has correctly pointed out, child abusers from many other areas of society so why single just one out?

I don’t know how many times it has to be pointed out to you that having two relationships with ‘foreign’ women doesn’t preclude you from xenophobia. History is full of examples of ‘conquerors’ taking ***ual advantage of native/local women - and no, I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing at all - but your repeated negative comments about Muslims and other immigrants certainly outweigh the fact that you’ve had the two relationships you speak of.

As regards Diane Abbott…I’m not a fan either, although her constituents appear to be. However the comments aimed at her were simply stupid. Like Claude Davis being my all time least popular Derby player leading to me concluding we shouldn’t sign another black player…which would be utterly ridiculous and undeniably racist, on top of which the comments about her being shot were repellently irresponsible.

YOU ARE STILL DOING IT.
Islam is NOT A RACE, its a religion and ideology. One that promotes hate and direspect to gays/trans/ apostates/ blasphemas/jews/ and non believers.
Go to any mosque you like and you will hear that.
Muslims, follow that programming. I am not belittling the person, but I am belittling the religion they hold so dear.
One that induces them to hound/harrass/threaten and use violence against those, when they are daft enough to follow its teachings to the extremes.

The anti with Islam is climbing, year by year. You now see it on the streets and is working its way into politics.
You may sit sit there quietly and say nothing, when education/politicians/ Media is being singled out for threats and intimidation. But some of us don't.
This is the UK and West. The ideology being pushed is not in line with Western values.

It isn't just here either. Europe is waking up and taking a stronger hand to it. Perhaps they are all racist and xenophobic as well?

[ramAnag]

Tricky…I don’t need a lesson on the difference between race and religion and neither do I have a lot of time for SOME of the teachings of Islam…any more than I do for SOME of the teachings of the Catholic/Christian Church.

Your dislike/hatred of Islam however is rooted in racism imo and your Islamophobia is nothing more than a very specific form of something very, very difficult to distinguish from racism.

We aren’t going to agree but there were other parts of our initial debate that you seem now to be distancing yourself from.