O/T:- Withdrawal Agreement - 'Peace in our time'

[Elite_Pie]

Unfortunately, the genies out the bottle. The fight will carry on at the ballot box now, for whoever tries to **** on the little mans voice now.

I very much doubt it. If this mess leads to a general election, nothing much will change. The Tories will win by a small majority, Labour will come second, and the other parties will pick up a few seats here and there. Any move to the far right will be small and insignificant in terms of seats in parliament. If you're hoping for Tommy Robinson to become Prime Minister, I think you're going to be disappointed.

[forwardmagpie]

When you say “MPs” haven’t been able to agree about the EU, I presume you mean “Tory MPs”? The vote tonight will demonstrate the root cause of all these problems, every other party will be almost totally united in voting against May’s deal, the Tories will be split down the middle. As usual.

There is no solution which unites the Tory party. That has been the problem for the last 30/40 years and will continue to be so.

Corbyn, Mann, Stewart, Barton, Field, Fitzpatrick for a few

[Trickytreesreds]

I very much doubt it. If this mess leads to a general election, nothing much will change. The Tories will win by a small majority, Labour will come second, and the other parties will pick up a few seats here and there. Any move to the far right will be small and insignificant in terms of seats in parliament. If you're hoping for Tommy Robinson to become Prime Minister, I think you're going to be disappointed.

Never said anything of the sort.

I think you'll find a mass boycott of voting or a record for spoiled papers.
I also believe you'll see a protest party rise, just to muck up any voting majority's. The Tories and Labour are going to suffer from this.

[Elite_Pie]

I think you'll find a mass boycott of voting or a record for spoiled papers.

Maybe, but that will only do more to maintain the status quo. You said "the fight will carry on at the ballot box". How is not voting or spoiling a paper carrying the fight?

I also believe you'll see a protest party rise, just to muck up any voting majority's. The Tories and Labour are going to suffer from this.

We need a new party to rise because I suspect many share my feelings and don't have any confidence in the current options, but I can't see it happening. Even if it does happen, it will take many years to have any effect.

[Notsohumblepie]

When you say “MPs” haven’t been able to agree about the EU, I presume you mean “Tory MPs”? The vote tonight will demonstrate the root cause of all these problems, every other party will be almost totally united in voting against May’s deal, the Tories will be split down the middle. As usual.

There is no solution which unites the Tory party. That has been the problem for the last 30/40 years and will continue to be so.

If the government agreed to every one of Labour's so called tests , and declared Keir Hardie's birthday a Public Holiday, Labour would still vote against anything the government proposed , and Bercow The Poison Dwarf would be their usual willing accomplice

The SNP votes down everything, in the forlorn hope of provoking a UK schism.

That's not unity it's Nihilism

'

[MagpieTony]

I think that the criteria set out in the referendum was very clear. It was a straight in out vote. There was plenty of information available at the time for anyone who could be bothered to do some research above and beyond the pathetic bickering and falsities of both the leave and remain campaigns. Ignorance cannot be used as an excuse and all the resulting arguments are basically white noise to blur the lines of something that previously was made exceptionally clear. The result of the referendum should have given all politicians two choices. 1. Take a deep breath and do your best to make something out of what you consider to have been the wrong decision. 2. If you cannot reconcile yourself with the decision, then do the honourable thing and resign.

The fact that the whole of the political establishment has remained so divided over the result of the referendum which they themselves authorised and voted overwhelmingly to take place has resulted in the national embarrassment and humiliation of our Parliament. All politicians knew there was a two way possibility that the referendum could go and having made the decision for it to go ahead, should have prepared themselves to enact the result whichever way it went.

Their bickering and obfuscation has totally undermined any bargaining power we had on working towards a good and mutually beneficial deal and had a disastrous and divisive effect on society. It has left businesses with no clear direction and the Nation in the dark. Most sensible businesses will have had time to consider contingency plans and will have prepared for whatever scenario is finally reached.

From Cameron to May, Corbyn to Umunna, Cable to Lucas, all have let this Country and its people down and have contributed to this state of disarray that we now find ourselves in. It is our politicians who have caused this mess from all sides of the house and tonight, as we see May's pathetic deal voted down, the door will be opened to even more shenanigans and chicanery. There is now no 'cure all' solution and whether we leave or manipulate some way to remain, untold damage has been wrought on the democratic process as the result of a referendum that the politicians themselves democratically voted to hold.

[BigFatPie]

I think that the criteria set out in the referendum was very clear. It was a straight in out vote. There was plenty of information available at the time for anyone who could be bothered to do some research above and beyond the pathetic bickering and falsities of both the leave and remain campaigns. Ignorance cannot be used as an excuse and all the resulting arguments are basically white noise to blur the lines of something that previously was made exceptionally clear. The result of the referendum should have given all politicians two choices. 1. Take a deep breath and do your best to make something out of what you consider to have been the wrong decision. 2. If you cannot reconcile yourself with the decision, then do the honourable thing and resign.

The fact that the whole of the political establishment has remained so divided over the result of the referendum which they themselves authorised and voted overwhelmingly to take place has resulted in the national embarrassment and humiliation of our Parliament. All politicians knew there was a two way possibility that the referendum could go and having made the decision for it to go ahead, should have prepared themselves to enact the result whichever way it went.

Their bickering and obfuscation has totally undermined any bargaining power we had on working towards a good and mutually beneficial deal and had a disastrous and divisive effect on society. It has left businesses with no clear direction and the Nation in the dark. Most sensible businesses will have had time to consider contingency plans and will have prepared for whatever scenario is finally reached.

From Cameron to May, Corbyn to Umunna, Cable to Lucas, all have let this Country and its people down and have contributed to this state of disarray that we now find ourselves in. It is our politicians who have caused this mess from all sides of the house and tonight, as we see May's pathetic deal voted down, the door will be opened to even more shenanigans and chicanery. There is now no 'cure all' solution and whether we leave or manipulate some way to remain, untold damage has been wrought on the democratic process as the result of a referendum that the politicians themselves democratically voted to hold.

The official Vote Leave campaign said we would leave with a deal.

No one said during the campaign they wanted to leave with no deal. If you think small businesses should have spent time and money preparing for no deal you’re apart from reality.

[MagpieTony]

The official Vote Leave campaign said we would leave with a deal.

No one said during the campaign they wanted to leave with no deal. If you think small businesses should have spent time and money preparing for no deal you’re apart from reality.

If my business was in any way affected by deal/no deal, I would have made damn sure that I was prepared for either outcome. Not to do this would have been complacent and stupid beyond belief. No deal means we move to WTO rules which is far from a cliff edge scenario. I'm sure that any business worth its salt would have researched the impact that this would have had on it and have made contingency plans accordingly.

[gozzie321]

As soon as the people voted to leave the government should have put its proposals to the EU on the terms we wanted to leave under, and let them come back to us. We then could have started arranging for life outside the EU. I am sure, as soon as they realised we meant business they would have soon come back to the negotiating table. Instead this governments feeble efforts kept us on the back foot from the start.

[HaylePie]

Yes there's a loss of sovereignty involved in being a member of the EU, I think 99% of people would grant you that, but we're talking about an EU army aren't we?

I repeat, can't happen without a unanimous vote, can't be used without a unanimous vote, probably will never happen anyway. It's the Turkish migrant invasion Mk 2.

Driller, if an EU army is never going to/cannot possibly happen then why is it pursued at great cost to the EU taxpayer? I recall that we had this chat about TTIP which only died because Trump killed it.

Unanimous votes are going, as are vetoes. They have to - the EU28/27 is going to grow (35?) and the chance of getting all to agree is increasingly unlikely. The example of Wallonia bringing down CETA and the increased level of horse-trading can't continue. The EU is moving to QMV of some kind - the details, I suspect, to be decided by the power-houses of N Europe. Once vetoes are gone, what next?

Back to the Army - normal policy would be for someone to raise the issue, debate, come to a conclusion and then move forward with funding etc agreed. In the UK that would be through a manifesto or a Paper or some kind. In the EU it is simply happening because someone wants it (EU Commission/Fr/Ger are keen - who knew?). Funding will be particularly interesting given how many EU countries refuse to contribute fully to their own defence provided by NATO. So, who proposed it and why is it still running if it can't get through?