OT. Shamima Begum

[Andy_Faber]

I have no sympathy for anyone who supports an entity that threatens my/our peaceful lives, so no sympathy for her but her baby was an innocent.

[swaledale]

I have no sympathy for anyone who supports an entity that threatens my/our peaceful lives, so no sympathy for her but her baby was an innocent.

Oh dear, its so simple isn't it? I'm jolly glad none of you have nay say in running the UK!

Yes has made abhorrent statement, yes she made the decision to go to Syria. But the case for returning her and dealing with her via the police and the courts is clear. The counter-terrorism strategy issued by the government last year, which includes the example of a British woman who travelled to join Isis and now has a newborn baby coming back to the UK. It is also established through the way other returning Isis recruits, including fighters, who have been dealt with in the courts; she doesn't pose a particular risk, only that she has a higher and more embarrassing profile. Plus she was groomed, left the UK as a minor and has experienced significant trauma.

But above on beyond that, she is (was) a British citizen, she is our problem and if Britain is to have any standing in the world as a decent democratic country it needs to accept responsibility for her and deal with her.

Arguably the decision is wrong under International law, because she has been left stateless (her entitlement to Bangladeshi citizenship is dubious at best), and under the UN Convention, to which the Uk is a signatory, leaving a person stateless is illegal.

I understand the sentiments, but really do we want to go back to the days of lynch mob mentality?

[Andy_Faber]

Oh dear, its so simple isn't it? I'm jolly glad none of you have nay say in running the UK!

Yes has made abhorrent statement, yes she made the decision to go to Syria. But the case for returning her and dealing with her via the police and the courts is clear. The counter-terrorism strategy issued by the government last year, which includes the example of a British woman who travelled to join Isis and now has a newborn baby coming back to the UK. It is also established through the way other returning Isis recruits, including fighters, who have been dealt with in the courts; she doesn't pose a particular risk, only that she has a higher and more embarrassing profile. Plus she was groomed, left the UK as a minor and has experienced significant trauma.

But above on beyond that, she is (was) a British citizen, she is our problem and if Britain is to have any standing in the world as a decent democratic country it needs to accept responsibility for her and deal with her.

Arguably the decision is wrong under International law, because she has been left stateless (her entitlement to Bangladeshi citizenship is dubious at best), and under the UN Convention, to which the Uk is a signatory, leaving a person stateless is illegal.

I understand the sentiments, but really do we want to go back to the days of lynch mob mentality?

Yes we know all that, or at least I do, my opinion is the same. As I've stated many times before though, people like SB are one thing, blinkered apologists for them just as bad

[ramAnag]

Yes we know all that, or at least I do, my opinion is the same. As I've stated many times before though, people like SB are one thing, blinkered apologists for them just as bad

I think you used the phrase ‘blinkered apologist’ to my initial response Andy and now you seem to be directing it at Swale.
It would be so easy to say nothing in the face of the populist nonsense which has been written about this girl but unfortunately, as is constantly illustrated on the Brexit thread, populism...i.e. unthinking, juvenile, knee jerk reaction seems to be the order of the day.

To be clear...I, and I suspect Swale, abhor terrorism and ISIS. I also think the girl acted incredibly stupidly and condemn her parents for feeling the need to now tell the British Government how to react when they failed to control their daughter in the first place.
Having said that...she was fif**** when she left and was effectively ‘groomed’ in much the same way as others who generate far greater sympathy have been.
I’m not sure how many of us would want to be judged on the basis of the behaviour of our ****age selves...but I am sure I expect our politicians, and frankly you too Andy, to react in a more adult, joined up, rational and less populist manner.

[mistaram]

I think you used the phrase ‘blinkered apologist’ to my initial response Andy and now you seem to be directing it at Swale.
It would be so easy to say nothing in the face of the populist nonsense which has been written about this girl but unfortunately, as is constantly illustrated on the Brexit thread, populism...i.e. unthinking, juvenile, knee jerk reaction seems to be the order of the day.

To be clear...I, and I suspect Swale, abhor terrorism and ISIS. I also think the girl acted incredibly stupidly and condemn her parents for feeling the need to now tell the British Government how to react when they failed to control their daughter in the first place.
Having said that...she was fif**** when she left and was effectively ‘groomed’ in much the same way as others who generate far greater sympathy have been.
I’m not sure how many of us would want to be judged on the basis of the behaviour of our ****age selves...but I am sure I expect our politicians, and frankly you too Andy, to react in a more adult, joined up, rational and less populist manner.

RA I have to admire your sympathetic nature But this is not the naive 15year old you make her out to be She's not some shoplifter she's someone who hates and wants to harm this country You talk about her being radicalized that can only happen if you either look for it in line or at a place of worship that preaches it By her commission became obsessed by watching beheading videos of captured hostages She has justified the Manchester bombing Even justifies the rape and enslavement of Yazidi women Evan her own father has said she doesn't deserve sympathy because she doesn't regret anything You have a point about parenting but even the police went to Bethnal Academy three times to personally warn her against travelling to Syria

[ramAnag]

RA I have to admire your sympathetic nature But this is not the naive 15year old you make her out to be She's not some shoplifter she's someone who hates and wants to harm this country You talk about her being radicalized that can only happen if you either look for it in line or at a place of worship that preaches it By her commission became obsessed by watching beheading videos of captured hostages She has justified the Manchester bombing Even justifies the rape and enslavement of Yazidi women Evan her own father has said she doesn't deserve sympathy because she doesn't regret anything You have a point about parenting but even the police went to Bethnal Academy three times to personally warn her against travelling to Syria

I’m not particularly sympathetic, mista and I think she’s stupid rather than naive.
The family thing is confused...on the one hand we have Stenson’s view and on the other, your suggestion about her father. I’ve no idea who’s right.
I think she’s damaged goods...can’t help but be after all that’s happened and I totally condemn the Manchester bombing and any other terrorist atrocity, but there is unfortunately a very fine line between innocents being killed in those sort of circumstances...MEN Arena, Birmingham, Warrington, to name but three and by the sort of aerial bombardments that western governments sometimes ‘legitimately’ but largely indiscriminately unleash.
All I’m saying is that the whole matter is far more complicated than the sort of Dirty Harry, ‘eye for an eye’ populist mentality would have us believe and we do have responsibilities in terms of international law.

[mistaram]

I’m not particularly sympathetic, mista and I think she’s stupid rather than naive.
The family thing is confused...on the one hand we have Stenson’s view and on the other, your suggestion about her father. I’ve no idea who’s right.
I think she’s damaged goods...can’t help but be after all that’s happened and I totally condemn the Manchester bombing and any other terrorist atrocity, but there is unfortunately a very fine line between innocents being killed in those sort of circumstances...MEN Arena, Birmingham, Warrington, to name but three and by the sort of aerial bombardments that western governments sometimes ‘legitimately’ but largely indiscriminately unleash.
All I’m saying is that the whole matter is far more complicated than the sort of Dirty Harry, ‘eye for an eye’ populist mentality would have us believe and we do have responsibilities in terms of international law.

On Feb24th her father Ahmid Ali said " If She at least admitted she made a mistake then I would feel for her but she does not accept her wrong"
Her brother in law Muhammad Raham urged the public to support the government decision

[Andy_Faber]

I think you used the phrase ‘blinkered apologist’ to my initial response Andy and now you seem to be directing it at Swale.
It would be so easy to say nothing in the face of the populist nonsense which has been written about this girl but unfortunately, as is constantly illustrated on the Brexit thread, populism...i.e. unthinking, juvenile, knee jerk reaction seems to be the order of the day.

To be clear...I, and I suspect Swale, abhor terrorism and ISIS. I also think the girl acted incredibly stupidly and condemn her parents for feeling the need to now tell the British Government how to react when they failed to control their daughter in the first place.
Having said that...she was fif**** when she left and was effectively ‘groomed’ in much the same way as others who generate far greater sympathy have been.
I’m not sure how many of us would want to be judged on the basis of the behaviour of our ****age selves...but I am sure I expect our politicians, and frankly you too Andy, to react in a more adult, joined up, rational and less populist manner.

I guess our respective insults make us even

You wrote elsewhere about moral complexity and morality is one of the complexities at play. Looking at the world at a micro level, SB in Syria is better for me and my loved ones than SB in UK. That's not complex, and its not populist, its just risk-averse. What's populist is the govt's stripping of nationality, which is just playing back the desires of the majority of the plebicite for the sake of hoovering up some votes down the line

[ramAnag]

I guess our respective insults make us even

You wrote elsewhere about moral complexity and morality is one of the complexities at play. Looking at the world at a micro level, SB in Syria is better for me and my loved ones than SB in UK. That's not complex, and its not populist, its just risk-averse. What's populist is the govt's stripping of nationality, which is just playing back the desires of the majority of the plebicite for the sake of hoovering up some votes down the line

I’m sorry Andy...I didn’t intend to be insulting towards you and would never go out of my way to be so. We don’t regularly see eye to eye politically but I believe we can always discuss things intelligently.
I recognise your point about SB as you appear to recognise mine about the way in which the Home Secretary and the Government in general are playing the populist card in order to, in your own words, ‘hoover up some votes down the line’.
Surely though we also have to recognise that if Britain is to retain its rapidly decreasing status in the World it has to be seen to be abiding by the rules of international law and we also have to acknowledge that terrorism is a product of people feeling alienated, dispossessed and disenfranchised. The reaction towards SB is at present only likely to foster further resentment and create greater tensions further down the line imo.

[Andy_Faber]

we also have to acknowledge that terrorism is a product of people feeling alienated, dispossessed and disenfranchised.

This part of we, ie me, doesn’t acknowledge that at all as far as the most urgent threat we currently have. Even most of our mainstream media now reluctantly accept that the issue is one of ‘way of life’.