OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Ram59]

And now we have the Dark Lord (mandelson) trying to stir up a revolt in the lords. How did he become a peer after not once but twice having to resign from a government post?

I bet his finger is hovering over the keyboard now......

[ramAnag]

Doubt you and RR will tempt Swale back on this topic with those tactics Ram59. Personally I'm sad he's decided to end his comments on Brexit as he, and occasionally mista, were about my only allies , but he's a stubborn bugger.
On the subject of Tony Blair...I disagreed entirely with him over Iraq, but why is he described as a 'war criminal'? I'll accept stubborn, arrogant, complacent, mistaken etc, but could someone please explain exactly how he's guilty of 'war crimes'?

[roger_ramjet]

Read the Chilcott Enquiry, or better yet review this link

http://www.arrestblair.org/blairs-crimes

As for Swale, his stubbornness has meant that this is the third time he has promised not to post on this thread any longer. I always found giving up smoking to be equally easy - I gave up loads of times.....

[ramAnag]

Read the Chilcott Enquiry, or better yet review this link

http://www.arrestblair.org/blairs-crimes

As for Swale, his stubbornness has meant that this is the third time he has promised not to post on this thread any longer. I always found giving up smoking to be equally easy - I gave up loads of times.....

Thanks for that Roger...very informative, although the mocked up photo suggests that there is no particularly 'hidden' agenda in place here. As I said, I was entirely opposed to what happened in Iraq, and to almost everything George Bush ever said, but I still don't really get how Blair is so much worse than other world leaders who have been responsible for leading their countries into ill advised and costly, both in human and economic terms, conflict, or Generals/Ministers who have sanctioned actions leading to the deaths of vast numbers of innocent people.

[Andy_Faber]

Thanks for that Roger...very informative, although the mocked up photo suggests that there is no particularly 'hidden' agenda in place here. As I said, I was entirely opposed to what happened in Iraq, and to almost everything George Bush ever said, but I still don't really get how Blair is so much worse than other world leaders who have been responsible for leading their countries into ill advised and costly, both in human and economic terms, conflict, or Generals/Ministers who have sanctioned actions leading to the deaths of vast numbers of innocent people.

For my two penneth, I think anyone who decides to go to war after ignoring independant scrutiny (regarding womd) has a case to answer - and no he isn't any worse than many other leaders, in fact he's well down the list, but he was OUR leader, hence I have a stronger view. I'm talking about Blair here, not Swale.

[roger_ramjet]

Now you mention it Swale and Blair do seem to share many characteristics: maybe they are one and the same person.

[ramAnag]

For my two penneth, I think anyone who decides to go to war after ignoring independant scrutiny (regarding womd) has a case to answer - and no he isn't any worse than many other leaders, in fact he's well down the list, but he was OUR leader, hence I have a stronger view. I'm talking about Blair here, not Swale.

Fine lines and all that and I do not seek to make a party political point at all, but isn't it likely that Cameron (Syrian bombing), Thatcher (Falklands esp. General Belgrano) and even Bomber Harris (Dresden) were just as guilty of 'war crimes'?

[roger_ramjet]

It doesnt matter if others did.....that doesnt affect what Blair did. Just because 3 other train robbers were guilty doesnt mean that Ronnie Biggs was any less guilty

[Andy_Faber]

Fine lines and all that and I do not seek to make a party political point at all, but isn't it likely that Cameron (Syrian bombing), Thatcher (Falklands esp. General Belgrano) and even Bomber Harris (Dresden) were just as guilty of 'war crimes'?

Cameron obtained parliamentary support I thought? Then DIDN'T get support the second time and didn't proceed? That's the type of democracy we vote for I thought

Thatcher, although I didn't like her, I believe did the right thing (poss for a selfish reason)

Harris from a 'different age'

But all would have had St Peter asking some searching questions I'd accept. Not Cameron yet of course

[ramAnag]

Fair point about Cameron AF...didn't make much difference to the victims though.
Take your point RR, mine is...okay, you're right, it may not lessen Blair's 'guilt', but I do wonder why he alone is accused of 'war crimes'.

[roger_ramjet]

Fair point about Cameron AF...didn't make much difference to the victims though.
Take your point RR, mine is...okay, you're right, it may not lessen Blair's 'guilt', but I do wonder why he alone is accused of 'war crimes'.

I dont think "he alone" stands accused. Thatcher I recall has been villified as a war criminal in certain quarters over the Belgrano incident

http://belgranoinquiry.com/

I dont think Bomber Harris has exactly escaped criticism in that direction either but his actions, which I assume you specifically refer to the Dresden firestorms, were taken after 5 years of war during which similar carpet bombing attacks were levelled on London, Coventry, Liverpool etc etc as well as Hamburg and Berlin. The success (or excess) of this attack was over the top but set in the context of a world war that had lasted 5 years at that point I dont think it alone was a war crime. After all the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed many more than the 25,000 in Dresden (not that I am defending it).

Finally Blair's guilt or otherwise is still fresh in everyone's minds and has never been fully exposed: hence its greater profile

[ramAnag]

I dont think "he alone" stands accused. Thatcher I recall has been villified as a war criminal in certain quarters over the Belgrano incident

http://belgranoinquiry.com/

I dont think Bomber Harris has exactly escaped criticism in that direction either but his actions, which I assume you specifically refer to the Dresden firestorms, were taken after 5 years of war during which similar carpet bombing attacks were levelled on London, Coventry, Liverpool etc etc as well as Hamburg and Berlin. The success (or excess) of this attack was over the top but set in the context of a world war that had lasted 5 years at that point I dont think it alone was a war crime. After all the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed many more than the 25,000 in Dresden (not that I am defending it).

Finally Blair's guilt or otherwise is still fresh in everyone's minds and has never been fully exposed: hence its greater profile

You're right again...none of them have 'escaped criticism' but none of them have had quite the same level of accusation thrown at them and Thatcher was actually afforded a state funeral - or something very similar - about as far from being accused of 'war crimes' as possible. I wholeheartedly agree with the criticism of Blair's actions over Iraq but I continue to wonder why he's singled out and also about the actual term 'war criminal' which I would have thought was more associated with committing or sanctioning wrongdoings during the time of war rather than misguidedly involving one's country in a war. Ironically I have no doubt that Saddam Hussein was a war criminal in every sense of the word.

[Ram59]

I would also question Bliar's motives, it seems to me, everything he does is about him. Have you ever known a Prime Minister feather his cap like him? From the loans building his property empire, sucking up to the the bankers and other leading businesses. Always on freebie holidays to exotic locations. Don't you think he was thinking about life after being the PM, and wanting to appear to be the USA 's best friend? He is extremely popular in the USA and spends all his time elsewhere in the world 'advising' others. Don't you think that his latest intervention is to boost his image in the rest of the eu?

[roger_ramjet]

You're right again...none of them have 'escaped criticism' but none of them have had quite the same level of accusation thrown at them and Thatcher was actually afforded a state funeral - or something very similar - about as far from being accused of 'war crimes' as possible. I wholeheartedly agree with the criticism of Blair's actions over Iraq but I continue to wonder why he's singled out and also about the actual term 'war criminal' which I would have thought was more associated with committing or sanctioning wrongdoings during the time of war rather than misguidedly involving one's country in a war. Ironically I have no doubt that Saddam Hussein was a war criminal in every sense of the word.

I think its only you that is singling him out!! I only referenced him in the context of the Anti Brexit campaigning and a possible reason that I had heard put forward for his view. Apart from the usual self agrandissement.

As to the use of the term "war criminal" then I guess you must take that up with the Kuala Lumpur war crimes tribunal who found him guilty of being a war criminal in 2011.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-cri...guilty/5478367

having said that, Malaysia's record on human rights is scarcely spotless - just ask Kim Jong-Nam or Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak about his use of the Sedition Act

[roger_ramjet]

You're right again...none of them have 'escaped criticism' but none of them have had quite the same level of accusation thrown at them and Thatcher was actually afforded a state funeral - or something very similar - about as far from being accused of 'war crimes' as possible. I wholeheartedly agree with the criticism of Blair's actions over Iraq but I continue to wonder why he's singled out and also about the actual term 'war criminal' which I would have thought was more associated with committing or sanctioning wrongdoings during the time of war rather than misguidedly involving one's country in a war. Ironically I have no doubt that Saddam Hussein was a war criminal in every sense of the word.

I think its only you that is singling him out!! I only referenced him in the context of the Anti Brexit campaigning and a possible reason that I had heard put forward for his view. Apart from the usual self agrandissement.

As to the use of the term "war criminal" then I guess you must take that up with the Kuala Lumpur war crimes tribunal who found him guilty of being a war criminal in 2011.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-cri...guilty/5478367

having said that, Malaysia's record on human rights is scarcely spotless - just ask Kim Jong-Nam or Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak about his use of the Sedition Act