OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Ram59]

Abbott was challenged on the hypocrisy of her decision to send her child to private school and she replied 'west Indian mothers will go to the wall for their children' and then refused to comment further when it was suggested that this was racist. This is not the only racist comment she has made. All I'm saying is that a 'straight' leader shouldn't allow a racist on his front bench.

Anag, for your information, Chakrabati was the 'independent' person called in to investigate anti-semitism in the labour party, which was contraversal in its result. No matter whether or not there was any controversy, a 'straight' leader shouldn't then be seen to reward her with a life peerage. Can you imagine the fuss is May got off a motoring offence and then gave a life peerage to the magistrate?

These things are facts, there is no right wing spin from me on this, true the likes of the Mail did have a field day and will come up with some further rubbish to make the story more spectacular, but I only believe the date that is printed in the Mail.

[Ram59]

Really everyman and his dog knows Corbyn supports the EU? Mm I don't think thats correct, its not that he hasn't got the balls to say so, its because there are some things he likes about the Eu and some things he doesn't - he is against the powerful elites that control matters including the Eu but recognises the social justice elements that have progressed with the EU and the benefits of free trade.

Seeing he has consistently said that he will not oppose the brexit vote, I would say your letting your prejudice colour your judgement.
Back to the issues you raised - mm well what proof have you that those seats were on the same train? So much "news" is misreported or presented in a fashion that pursues a certain agenda that only a very gullable person would believe it without question - also how do you know if there were seats on that train that they werent reserved? I've been on trains where there were scores of empty seats that were reserved, granted I took the option of taking one, and seeing if anyone turned up, but then I'm not a politician.

On what Abbot said, as you don't know the question or context or if you do you haven't said so, I'd be very wary of accepting that is what she said or meant on face value - I've done a number of Tv interviews and having watched them back, the edited version bore absolutely no relation to the actual interview, they spliced some of my answers to completely different questions and even edited words out of my answers to give a completely different meaning.

As for the whitewash on anti semitism, mm again thats what the right wing media reported rather than what actually happened and guess what they often chnage the facts or word the to suit their own agenda - we shall see mor eof this as the election campaign gathers force and those who choose to accept things because it suits thier beleifs will swallow the lies and distrtions and we will again end up with the politicians we deserve!

The irony is that I find neither Corbyn or Abbot particulary appealing politicans!

I refrained from contributing on here recognising that it was pearls before swine to question the untruths, people believe what they want to believe, and there was nothing new to add to the debate, brexit was going to happen and I knew that when it did I would be laughing when many of those who voted for it found out that it changed thing very little for them and for the worse in most cases.

The election has changed matters and added something new to the debate which is why I have returned to posting on the thread.

BTW swale, you need to read my posts a little more carefully.

I said 'regarding brexit, Everyman and his dog knew Corbyn was in favour'

Whereas you have quoted me as saying 'Everyman and his dog knows Corbyn supports the EU'.

Have a discussion by all means, but don't have a go for me saying the opposite of what I said.

[ramAnag]

Abbott was challenged on the hypocrisy of her decision to send her child to private school and she replied 'west Indian mothers will go to the wall for their children' and then refused to comment further when it was suggested that this was racist. This is not the only racist comment she has made. All I'm saying is that a 'straight' leader shouldn't allow a racist on his front bench.

Anag, for your information, Chakrabati was the 'independent' person called in to investigate anti-semitism in the labour party, which was contraversal in its result. No matter whether or not there was any controversy, a 'straight' leader shouldn't then be seen to reward her with a life peerage. Can you imagine the fuss is May got off a motoring offence and then gave a life peerage to the magistrate?

These things are facts, there is no right wing spin from me on this, true the likes of the Mail did have a field day and will come up with some further rubbish to make the story more spectacular, but I only believe the date that is printed in the Mail.

You do seem to have got a bit twitchy since the election was called Ram59. I was only asking about Chakrabarti because I genuinely didn't know where you were coming from with mention of her. As regards Diane Abbot, as I've previously said, I dislike the woman and think she is a very overrated politician.

On the subject of racism though, I don't think anyone in the Tory party, least of all it's leader, can claim the moral high ground following the appointment of Lyndon Crosby as i/c the forthcoming election campaign. That's the same Lynton Crosby who was responsible for the racist slurs against Sadiq Khan and outright lies against the Labour Party in the most recent London Mayoral elections. No spin there from me either, just a fact I offer for your consideration. Haven't heard much in the way of press reaction to that one.

P.S. Forgot to add...he was also knighted 'by' Cameron in 2016 despite his behaviour and presumably for nothing other than services to the Tory Party who also paid him £140,000 for four months work...you'd have thought that would be enough wouldn't you?

[Andy_Faber]

Lynton Crosby who was paid £140,000 for four months work...you'd have thought that would be enough wouldn't you?

Setting aside the honours system, which IMO is the most broken thing in UK:

It's a dog eat dog world, and if Crosby really did come up with 'The Coalition of Chaos' I would consider it money well spent from the Tory POV.

[Ram59]

I'm not the one saying the Tories are whiter than white I'm saying they're all as bad as each other.

Just don't try and tell me that although we all believe Corbyn is an idiot, he is an honest idiot, when he too has plenty to be ashamed of.

[Andy_Faber]

I'm not the one saying the Tories are whiter than white I'm saying they're all as bad as each other.

Just don't try and tell me that although we all believe Corbyn is an idiot, he is an honest idiot, when he too has plenty to be ashamed of.

Too right. As that famous foul-mouthed Scot Jamie MacDonald said 'There are no clean hands here. We're all in the same plague pit'

The Chakrabati incident demonstrates that not only is JC up to the same games as the Tories, he actually manages to be as unsubtle about it as them. I guess that's a sort-of compliment, chalk one up on the plus side Jezza!

[ramAnag]

I'm not the one saying the Tories are whiter than white I'm saying they're all as bad as each other.

Just don't try and tell me that although we all believe Corbyn is an idiot, he is an honest idiot, when he too has plenty to be ashamed of.

But clearly you favour one party so don't actually believe they're all as bad as each other and - to quote you - all I'm saying is a 'straight' leader wouldn't have a racist leading her election campaign.

I don't believe that Corbyn is an 'idiot' but I do think he's a naive idealist and that he's the biggest obstacle to the Tories winning with a substantial majority. Not entirely insurmountable though.

You really think the 'Coalition of Chaos' is that good Andy? I'd suggest it could be used against them. To take alliteration a stage further it could be suggested that the Tory party itself is a coalition of chaotic convenience. I hold politicians in general in pretty low regard but there really is no more disparate group of back stabbers than the current Tory party. I was pleased when May became PM, simply because she was the only one of the otherwise lame duck candidates with any credibility at all, but her complete about turn over this election, having repeatedly said that any snap election would be bad for the country, now calls her integrity and judgement into question imo.

[Andy_Faber]

You really think the 'Coalition of Chaos' is that good Andy? I'd suggest it could be used against them. To take alliteration a stage further it could be suggested that the Tory party itself is a coalition of chaotic convenience.

you're assuming the electorate's considerations are as nuanced as your own, which I would suggest is probably not the case. I think such slogans DO make a difference

Regarding your other comment about the Tories employing racists in their team, I have to counter by pulling the Diane Abbott card. As I said earlier, there are no clean hands

[swaledale]

BTW swale, you need to read my posts a little more carefully.

I said 'regarding brexit, Everyman and his dog knew Corbyn was in favour'

Whereas you have quoted me as saying 'Everyman and his dog knows Corbyn supports the EU'.

Have a discussion by all means, but don't have a go for me saying the opposite of what I said.

Point taken Ram59, though I think your splitting hairs on this one, I've never seen anyone more "sitting on the fence" than Corbyn did on Brexit.

Abbott' saying rascist? Mm by implication maybe but sounds more like a quick response that she realised sounded wrong at the time, so I think your being very harsh on calling her a Rascist, we would all be tainted on that score.

[ramAnag]

you're assuming the electorate's considerations are as nuanced as your own, which I would suggest is probably not the case. I think such slogans DO make a difference

Regarding your other comment about the Tories employing racists in their team, I have to counter by pulling the Diane Abbott card. As I said earlier, there are no clean hands

Not sure you've been following Andy, that card's been played, in fact it was Ram59's opening gambit...Lynton Crosby was offered in response.

[Andy_Faber]

Not sure you've been following Andy, that card's been played, in fact it was Ram59's opening gambit...Lynton Crosby was offered in response.

I'm a busted flush as usual

[Ram59]

But clearly you favour one party so don't actually believe they're all as bad as each other and - to quote you - all I'm saying is a 'straight' leader wouldn't have a racist leading her election campaign.

I don't believe that Corbyn is an 'idiot' but I do think he's a naive idealist and that he's the biggest obstacle to the Tories winning with a substantial majority. Not entirely insurmountable though.

You really think the 'Coalition of Chaos' is that good Andy? I'd suggest it could be used against them. To take alliteration a stage further it could be suggested that the Tory party itself is a coalition of chaotic convenience. I hold politicians in general in pretty low regard but there really is no more disparate group of back stabbers than the current Tory party. I was pleased when May became PM, simply because she was the only one of the otherwise lame duck candidates with any credibility at all, but her complete about turn over this election, having repeatedly said that any snap election would be bad for the country, now calls her integrity and judgement into question imo.

Of course I can believe they're as bad as other and still favour one party, because generally speaking, I believe that that party's policies are best for the country. Even though the actions of some of their members can make me cringe at times.

I personally favoured the Tory/liberal coalition, but I don't think that would work now. That's why I'm disappointed that Corbyn is reducing the opposition to being ineffective.

My comments are in response to the claim that Corbyn is straight. Nothing else has any relevance. May being a mass murderer wouldn't make Corbyn more or less straight.

[ramAnag]

Of course I can believe they're as bad as other and still favour one party, because generally speaking, I believe that that party's policies are best for the country. Even though the actions of some of their members can make me cringe at times.

I personally favoured the Tory/liberal coalition, but I don't think that would work now. That's why I'm disappointed that Corbyn is reducing the opposition to being ineffective.

My comments are in response to the claim that Corbyn is straight. Nothing else has any relevance. May being a mass murderer wouldn't make Corbyn more or less straight.

At the risk of entering the realm of semantics...you can't 'believe they're as bad as each other' while believing that one 'party's politics are best for the country'. That is just contradiction and makes no sense.

I agree with you about the coalition Government. The LibDems, along with the more reasonable Conservatives toned down the excesses of the Tory right and just look at the chaos that has ensued since...Cameron and gorgeous George lasted how long...thirteen months...once they won their own working majority?

As regards your comments on 'straight' politicians. That's sadly become almost another contradiction but you introduced the 'R' word into the debate with your reference to Diane Abbot. She has, imo, always been inclined to be a 'foot in mouth' politician, a classic 'empty vessel' who has progressed as far as she has principally as a result of her race and gender. The re-employment by Mrs. May of a man who has a record of using racist tactics to orchestrate the current Tory election campaign is, for me, of greater concern.

[swaledale]

Of course I can believe they're as bad as other and still favour one party, because generally speaking, I believe that that party's policies are best for the country. Even though the actions of some of their members can make me cringe at times.

I personally favoured the Tory/liberal coalition, but I don't think that would work now. That's why I'm disappointed that Corbyn is reducing the opposition to being ineffective.

My comments are in response to the claim that Corbyn is straight. Nothing else has any relevance. May being a mass murderer wouldn't make Corbyn more or less straight.

I believe Corbyn is more or less straight, he says what he believes and does not employ the spin and confuse tactics of other politicians, neither is he one of these smart suited and booted professionals and he does actually live his life according to his beliefs - its interesting that we expect politicians to be better than the electorate who judge them harshly.

Maybe straight is the wrong word - in any field of human interaction, one cannot be totally "straight". so i will call him authentic, he does what he says he believes what he says, to a greater extent than others who will say anything they believe the electorate wants to here!

As for the Tories being better for the country, well recent history suggests otherwise - cameron led the country into an unneccessary referendum for party political reasons not in the interests of the country, who can calculcate the time and effort and the eventual cost of Brexit? I'm talking merely about the effects and cost of the referendum and the activites that have gone on since, not what may happen afterwards.

May is leading the country into an unnecessary election, for political reasons not in the interests of the country and the Tories generally do what their paymasters (who certainly don't have the interests of anyone on average incomes at heart).

meanwhile the NHS is in crisis, social care is a scandal which is resulting in misery, the railways cost the taxpayer more in subsidy than when they were nationalised and cost us more in fares.

Has any party got a viable alternative at this moment in time? Probably not and thats where Corbyn falls down badly, the only upside of this election is that hopefully it will see his removal as leader of the labour party and we may get a stronger opposition back, on that point I agree with you.

[ramAnag]

I believe Corbyn is more or less straight, he says what he believes and does not employ the spin and confuse tactics of other politicians, neither is he one of these smart suited and booted professionals and he does actually live his life according to his beliefs - its interesting that we expect politicians to be better than the electorate who judge them harshly.

Maybe straight is the wrong word - in any field of human interaction, one cannot be totally "straight". so i will call him authentic, he does what he says he believes what he says, to a greater extent than others who will say anything they believe the electorate wants to here!

As for the Tories being better for the country, well recent history suggests otherwise - cameron led the country into an unneccessary referendum for party political reasons not in the interests of the country, who can calculcate the time and effort and the eventual cost of Brexit? I'm talking merely about the effects and cost of the referendum and the activites that have gone on since, not what may happen afterwards.

May is leading the country into an unnecessary election, for political reasons not in the interests of the country and the Tories generally do what their paymasters (who certainly don't have the interests of anyone on average incomes at heart).

meanwhile the NHS is in crisis, social care is a scandal which is resulting in misery, the railways cost the taxpayer more in subsidy than when they were nationalised and cost us more in fares.

Has any party got a viable alternative at this moment in time? Probably not and thats where Corbyn falls down badly, the only upside of this election is that hopefully it will see his removal as leader of the labour party and we may get a stronger opposition back, on that point I agree with you.

In a nutshell...well put...where's that 'like button' when you want it?

Such a pity that there has been no viable, articulate opposition in the last twelve or fifteen months when the country has so desperately needed one.