OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[MadAmster]

I think a lot of people who voted OUT did so because they do not want to be sucked into a United States of Europe. One step closer to the conspiracy theorists theory of the New World Order with one "government" and all of us very stringently controlled in what we say and do.

A US of E won't work IMO because what the Greeks, Spaniards, Italians and Portuguese want out of life is light years away from what a Brit or a German or e Frenchman or a Dutch person wants. Therefore uniform taxes etc won't work. The Southern Europeans will want our level of benefits/life withour paying for it. trouble on the horizon.

[Romanis]

The Big question is whether the Irish will get screwed or if Theresa May will cave in. If she does, she should go immediately. We should know by Monday

[swaledale]

I think a lot of people who voted OUT did so because they do not want to be sucked into a United States of Europe. One step closer to the conspiracy theorists theory of the New World Order with one "government" and all of us very stringently controlled in what we say and do.

A US of E won't work IMO because what the Greeks, Spaniards, Italians and Portuguese want out of life is light years away from what a Brit or a German or e Frenchman or a Dutch person wants. Therefore uniform taxes etc won't work. The Southern Europeans will want our level of benefits/life withour paying for it. trouble on the horizon.

Well there were a lot of different views, many thought £350 million would go to the NHS, many wanted limits on immigration so that the foreigners doing jobs that the ones who voted leave didn't want to do would go.

All politics goes in cycles and the EU will certainly evolve, given the differing views held by various members, the U of Eu isn't a realistic proposition anyway and we had a powerful veto which stopped many things and kept us out of the bits we didn't like - losing that power and influence and the economic advantage will be a blow for sure - we could in any case avoid all that IF thats what is feared and remain in the single market and customs union, but those on the right that want a low wage, low regulation, low tax economy which they can profit from safe in their offshore bolt holes will be laughing all the way to the bank.

[swaledale]

I think a lot of people who voted OUT did so because they do not want to be sucked into a United States of Europe. One step closer to the conspiracy theorists theory of the New World Order with one "government" and all of us very stringently controlled in what we say and do.

A US of E won't work IMO because what the Greeks, Spaniards, Italians and Portuguese want out of life is light years away from what a Brit or a German or e Frenchman or a Dutch person wants. Therefore uniform taxes etc won't work. The Southern Europeans will want our level of benefits/life withour paying for it. trouble on the horizon.

Well there were a lot of different views, many thought £350 million would go to the NHS, many wanted limits on immigration so that the foreigners doing jobs that the ones who voted leave didn't want to do would go.

All politics goes in cycles and the EU will certainly evolve, given the differing views held by various members, the U of Eu isn't a realistic proposition anyway and we had a powerful veto which stopped many things and kept us out of the bits we didn't like - losing that power and influence and the economic advantage will be a blow for sure - we could in any case avoid all that IF thats what is feared and remain in the single market and customs union, but those on the right that want a low wage, low regulation, low tax economy which they can profit from safe in their offshore bolt holes will be laughing all the way to the bank.

[Andy_Faber]

How much a week? Interesting question. It is a gross £350M a week. That is correct but that is only a part of the story. We get some back in the form of grants and subsidies back from the EU so we have to subtract those from the £350M a week. We also get the annual £1Bn rebate Maggie negotiated. The actual cost is about half of what we originally pay in so, around £175M a week.

However, we should bill them for our WW1 and WW2 efforts for a start. That should deal with most of what they think we owe them.

Then you get the idiot that is Barnier accusing the UK of running away from ISIS when the EU needs to show solidarity. He forgets that the UK puts more in cash terms and in manpower into NATO than any other EU country. The man also thinks we will leave Interpol and probably the joint secret service conglomerate without a name that sees EU countries share intel. Why would we lave those two entities or NATO for that matter. Those organisations have been going longer than the EU. No reason for us to leave any of them..... apart from the EU.

Barnier's comments this week show what a joke it is.

Juncker's comment when asked why, when other countries have been fined for exceeding the 3% GDP overspend, France, despite doing it year after year, haven't been fined, answered "Because they are the French" shows what a farce the whole thing is.

I'm interested to see that despite three decades in The Netherlands, 'we' is still the UK to you, at least in this discussion. Do you have equally strongly held opinions on all things Dutch? I'm making no point, just interested in how perspective changes through time.

[mistaram]

Andy not sure what getting at please explain

[Andy_Faber]

Mista, MA lives in Netherlands but still has strong views on UK issues, I wondered if he is as devout about issues which affect NL. Not so I can then make any sort of point, I'm just interested. Being passionate about ones place of origin and place of residence is difficult to rationalise, but I haven't been displaced like that, Derby born and bred, so I like to understand how others feel

[mistaram]

Thanks Andy its all double Dutch to me 😄😄

[MadAmster]

I'm interested to see that despite three decades in The Netherlands, 'we' is still the UK to you, at least in this discussion. Do you have equally strongly held opinions on all things Dutch? I'm making no point, just interested in how perspective changes through time.

You can take the boy out of England.......

As for Dutch issues..... I do have strong opinions. They need to get away from proportional representation OR raise the minimum % of votes required to qualify for seats. 150 seats in Parliament. In the March election there were 84 parties putting up candidates. 13 of them have seats. It took until 2 weeks ago to form a coalition.... They go meekly along with everything EU which has the benefit of seeing them get a higher proportion of the "top jobs" that one might expect. Always having coalitions means they never get anything done

One of the new parties called the forum for democracy has a novel idea. They will refuse to join a coalition and will only go into government if they are the largest party in the country. If necessary they will form a minority government. With the possible exception of their party leader being prime Minister, none of their MPs will get Minister's posts. The cabinet will be based on knowledge. All Ministers will be experts in the field their Ministry covers. This also means that the Ministers will do what is conceived as best for the country rather than best for their party as they will have no affiliation. The Minister of Finance will be a top economist who will push for measures to help the entire country rather than, first and foremost, the party faithful.

This might mean that the Ministers push policy that is the opposite of what the party had in their manifesto. They see this as the ultimate in democracy. Ministers controlled by Parliament. Novel idea that might work.

One thing I am trying find out at the moment is to whom do the Dutch owe their national debt? I suspect some to the IMF and ECB but much will be to private banks (Rothschilds etc?). Time to stop the annual overspend. The debt is rising by about 350 euro per second. This has to stop as it is creating a rod for our kids and grandkids backs. Totally unacceptable to me.

Banks. They need reeling in. They, and they alone, caused the 2008 crash with their greed. Next time a bank looks like collapsing, let it collapse. Banks like the ABN were in dire trouble. They got billions in return for shares. they now have those shares back but the total repayments were less than they had received in bale out money. Disgusting.

Simple answer to your question is YES!!

[Andy_Faber]

You can take the boy out of England.......

As for Dutch issues..... I do have strong opinions. They need to get away from proportional representation OR raise the minimum % of votes required to qualify for seats. 150 seats in Parliament. In the March election there were 84 parties putting up candidates. 13 of them have seats. It took until 2 weeks ago to form a coalition.... They go meekly along with everything EU which has the benefit of seeing them get a higher proportion of the "top jobs" that one might expect. Always having coalitions means they never get anything done

One of the new parties called the forum for democracy has a novel idea. They will refuse to join a coalition and will only go into government if they are the largest party in the country. If necessary they will form a minority government. With the possible exception of their party leader being prime Minister, none of their MPs will get Minister's posts. The cabinet will be based on knowledge. All Ministers will be experts in the field their Ministry covers. This also means that the Ministers will do what is conceived as best for the country rather than best for their party as they will have no affiliation. The Minister of Finance will be a top economist who will push for measures to help the entire country rather than, first and foremost, the party faithful.

This might mean that the Ministers push policy that is the opposite of what the party had in their manifesto. They see this as the ultimate in democracy. Ministers controlled by Parliament. Novel idea that might work.

One thing I am trying find out at the moment is to whom do the Dutch owe their national debt? I suspect some to the IMF and ECB but much will be to private banks (Rothschilds etc?). Time to stop the annual overspend. The debt is rising by about 350 euro per second. This has to stop as it is creating a rod for our kids and grandkids backs. Totally unacceptable to me.

Banks. They need reeling in. They, and they alone, caused the 2008 crash with their greed. Next time a bank looks like collapsing, let it collapse. Banks like the ABN were in dire trouble. They got billions in return for shares. they now have those shares back but the total repayments were less than they had received in bale out money. Disgusting.

Simple answer to your question is YES!!

Thanks for that MA, clearly you do - IMO too many expats from and into UK make no such effort, or very little.

The idea of a country being run by people who actually know what the **** they were on about without party-political favour is one I would love to see enacted

[mistaram]

Andy second that wouldn't it be nice to have Simone making decision who actually know what they are doing instead of relying on civil servants How ministers can move from one department to another over night is scandalous Michael Gove has been in Parliament for 11years he has been Shadow secretary for Children Schools and Families Secretary of State for Education Chief Whip Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury. Secretary of State for Justice Lord Chancellor Nice to think it might change but it will never happen

[roger_ramjet]

Mista - I think the point is that the civil servants are the ones that really make the decisions and are the so called "experts" - although the expertise probably lies a bit further down the food chain than that, as the senior civil servants are probably no more clued in than the ministers. Ministers can jump departments easily because they dont need to know any of the detail, but just rubber stamp what "Sir Humphrey" tells them to.

The Dutch concept that MA describes sounds good on paper but is it really so different from having a an expert a level or two divorced from the mouthpiece? If you believe that the minister makes the decisions, then I suppose the answer is yes, but if you don't (and I have worked in such an environment myself) and believe that, by and large, the decisions are "put to" the minister to make, then Im not convinced the decision making would be any different.

[Andy_Faber]

Mista - I think the point is that the civil servants are the ones that really make the decisions and are the so called "experts" - although the expertise probably lies a bit further down the food chain than that, as the senior civil servants are probably no more clued in than the ministers. Ministers can jump departments easily because they dont need to know any of the detail, but just rubber stamp what "Sir Humphrey" tells them to.

The Dutch concept that MA describes sounds good on paper but is it really so different from having a an expert a level or two divorced from the mouthpiece? If you believe that the minister makes the decisions, then I suppose the answer is yes, but if you don't (and I have worked in such an environment myself) and believe that, by and large, the decisions are "put to" the minister to make, then Im not convinced the decision making would be any different.

yes it is different because it seems to do away with politicians. It would also reassure people if they saw someone in the hot seat who had been in that same hot seat elsewhere. And yes I accept that most of the time they are just rubber stamping but any shocker can weild a rubber stamp. And I also accept that businessmen can act 'politically'

[ramAnag]

At the end of the day surely the truth of the matter is this simple.
Since Brexit the following has happened.
1. The value of the pound has dropped significantly leading to an increase in the cost of all imports and everyone’s cost of living.
2. The extent to which we are valued by fellow Europeans has also decreased considerably leading to us becoming increasingly mistrusted and isolated.
3. The Irish problem which had been largely solved is in danger of arising again.
4. We have become less able to stand up to the dreadful Trump because we fear we are likely to become more dependent of trans Atlantic trade deals in the post Brexit world.
5. Our politicians have been unable to focus on anything at all other than Brexit.
6. The likely Brexit bill has risen to £50 billion which, far from helping the NHS as promised, is likely to cripple our public services for the foreseeable future.

On the plus side, as far as the Brexiteers are concerned, I believe Mr. Farage has a guaranteed £73k pension from the EU.

[Andy_Faber]

At the end of the day surely the truth of the matter is this simple.
Since Brexit the following has happened.
1. The value of the pound has dropped significantly leading to an increase in the cost of all imports and everyone’s cost of living.
2. The extent to which we are valued by fellow Europeans has also decreased considerably leading to us becoming increasingly mistrusted and isolated.
3. The Irish problem which had been largely solved is in danger of arising again.
4. We have become less able to stand up to the dreadful Trump because we fear we are likely to become more dependent of trans Atlantic trade deals in the post Brexit world.
5. Our politicians have been unable to focus on anything at all other than Brexit.
6. The likely Brexit bill has risen to £50 billion which, far from helping the NHS as promised, is likely to cripple our public services for the foreseeable future.

On the plus side, as far as the Brexiteers are concerned, I believe Mr. Farage has a guaranteed £73k pension from the EU.

Welcome back RA, I thought you'd defected.

1. The pound is actually on the way up, 1.14 and the market makers on R4 this am were tipping it to outperform most currencies over the next few months
2. Not sure where you get that from, no-one I speak to feels like that
3. Tricky one, probably the biggest issue to be resolved. There's no solution I can see
4. If you look back at Ramjet's posts 2818, my guess and the stories I hear on the radio suggest that's how US works as well, the politicians spunk off about this and that and the bureaucrats get some actual, and possibly contradictory, work done. Not to say he isn't fundamentally dreadful of course.
5. I think its the media, not politicians, that can't shake Brexit off, but its certainly draining resource that could be deployed elsewhere
6. See my post 2803, which attempts to put the £50m (and £350m a week lol) into context

I would defend NF retaining his pension if he wasn't already wealthy enough, but he is so I won't