OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[MadAmster]

The EU should, under their own Laws/rules have an independent audit every year. They never have had. Why? Is it because they are afraid that the audit will show exactly where the several billion a year that "goes missing" has gone and they don't want fiinding out. Where do those billions go? Why have they also never held a huge inquiry into this annual abomination?

Only they can tell.. don't hold your breath.

[Andy_Faber]

The EU should, under their own Laws/rules have an independent audit every year. They never have had. Why? Is it because they are afraid that the audit will show exactly where the several billion a year that "goes missing" has gone and they don't want fiinding out. Where do those billions go? Why have they also never held a huge inquiry into this annual abomination?

Only they can tell.. don't hold your breath.

As a matter of interest, what's the mood about EU like in t't Netherlands? We only ever get spun info in UK of course, be it pro or anti.

[ramAnag]

But, my point is that we're powerless to stop the eu doing virtually whatever it wants to do. The tories can be and have been voted out of office when the people wanted them gone.

I do take your point Ram59 but let’s put it in context...I think I’m right in saying that the Tories were returned to office via the votes of around 24% of the electorate at the last election. I think I may also be right in saying that more people didn’t actually vote at all than voted for either of the two major parties. I appreciate that there are clear and obvious dangers associated with unelected authorities having too much power but there are times when I do wonder about the ‘benefits’ of democracy especially when you look at what it has currently led to.

[MadAmster]

As a matter of interest, what's the mood about EU like in t't Netherlands? We only ever get spun info in UK of course, be it pro or anti.

There is, or was at any rate, a large groundswell of #Nexit until we voted #Brexit and the EU started talking about robbing us blind to pay for the impudence of turning our backs..... That allied to the Trump and Macron votes slowed the extremes down. There is, however, still a general feeling that there is "too much Brussels" involvement in stuff they shouldn't be involved in. The US of E is not popular, except under politicians. They still haven't been told about the EU Army.

If there was a referendum tomorrow with 3 choices, #Nremain, #Nexit or #1991 pre Maastricht agreement reverting to the Common Market Trade Area, IMO the latter would win.

The Dutch, like the UK are net payers into the EU, paying far more in than they get out. The politicians spin the number of high profile jobs Dutch former politicians get in Brussels to "show" how the Dutch are very present at the influencing table. The electorate buy it.

Those who still buy in to the "the UK has shot itself in the foot" camp genuinely feel sorry for us. They haven't forgotten 2 world wars and are still very grateful that the UK stood alone, for a time in 2 WW's, and saved Europe from the Germans (who, together with the French, are now conquering Europe via the back door). Just maybe we are right to stand alone again against a very different kind of "enemy" this time.

[ramAnag]

So...the Dutch ‘haven’t been told about the EU Army’...and yet the Daily Mail, Express and various other scaremongers, including some on this site, know all about it. Seems unlikely.

Maybe that’s because the nearest thing to an EU Army is actually NATO and most people think that’s a reasonable thing.

Tbf MA, which I know you invariably are, wasn’t it the Nazis rather than the ‘Germans’ who Europe was saved from and, if your appraisal is correct, wouldn’t we have been better staying in and fighting our corner alongside the other nations against this supposed German/French rear entry alliance?

[swaledale]

Such as, in my own little world, my only personal experience of eu grants are :

My rich arable farmer friend acquiring a handful of sheep to gain a good handout, also in order to get more lucrative handouts he has to farm using certain restrictions suitable for very large farms, like in France.

Another rich friend who owns 50% of 10M turnover company gets a 350k handout in the year he buys an extra 500k house and a Porsche Macan.

The eu contributed to a local road improvement on the condition that there is a bus lane on the dual carriage way, for 4 buses an hour!

I did say that I HOPED that local decision makers would be better at deciding where the money should go.

Your point about what happened in 2009 destroys your argument somewhat, we had the chance to get rid of them in 2010. Something we can't do with the unelected eu personnel.

France by and large has rather small inefficient farms and the EU subsidy system was based around their needs to an extent hence why French farmers get rather excited whenever reform is in the air.

It would be nice to think that once out of the EU subsidies to ruch land owners will stop but its that subsidy system which keeps food prices cheap and I hardly think the Tories a want to inflict "realistic" food prices on voters or upset their rich chums.

Not sure where your other rich friend gets his hand out from our why but its hardly a unique example of rich people manipulating grant systems for their own ends, lets face housing benefit ends up in the pockets of more than a few Tory (not exclusively agreed) MPs who happen to have private rented property portfolios.

I'd check the details of the Road Improvement scheme because often the facts are somewhat different, the local authority may have obtained funding on the basis of an environmental case to improve public transport rather than the Eu insisting on a bus lane, without it funding from that source may not have been forthcoming.

What about the unelected legions of government personnel not to mention the lobbyists and donors who are in no way accountable in the Uk but still have a huge influence on UK government policy and how its implemented?

[swaledale]

There is, or was at any rate, a large groundswell of #Nexit until we voted #Brexit and the EU started talking about robbing us blind to pay for the impudence of turning our backs..... That allied to the Trump and Macron votes slowed the extremes down. There is, however, still a general feeling that there is "too much Brussels" involvement in stuff they shouldn't be involved in. The US of E is not popular, except under politicians. They still haven't been told about the EU Army.

If there was a referendum tomorrow with 3 choices, #Nremain, #Nexit or #1991 pre Maastricht agreement reverting to the Common Market Trade Area, IMO the latter would win.

The Dutch, like the UK are net payers into the EU, paying far more in than they get out. The politicians spin the number of high profile jobs Dutch former politicians get in Brussels to "show" how the Dutch are very present at the influencing table. The electorate buy it.

Those who still buy in to the "the UK has shot itself in the foot" camp genuinely feel sorry for us. They haven't forgotten 2 world wars and are still very grateful that the UK stood alone, for a time in 2 WW's, and saved Europe from the Germans (who, together with the French, are now conquering Europe via the back door). Just maybe we are right to stand alone again against a very different kind of "enemy" this time.

In point of fact it was the Americans who saved europe from the Nazi's, with a little help from the Russians, albeit we Brits were through geographic fortune able to provide a handy launch pad!

Net contributors to the EU budget, as are the germans, that overlooks the actual economic benefits of free trade etc.

[swaledale]

I would suggest that it was the Labour Government who most adversely impacted lower paid workers' rights, pay rates and employment prospects, plus made the job of those in work harder, over the past two decades by not exercising the optional moratorium on free access to UK of people from Eastern EU countries in the 90s. That might not be right, but its a point of view, but to some extent backed up by cabinet ministers of the time who have confirmed it was partly done in spite at the Tories, who had gone out of power wanting the moratorium. I'm absolutely not saying the Tories aren't a callous bunch when the mood takes them, but whereas the Tories might just be thinking of themselves to the detriment of the UK plebicite, the Labourists in this case were thinking of the whole of Europe, yet STILL to the detriment of the UK plebicite.

On the Clegg/Salmond thing, my quick fire response maybe hid the fact that, especially at the last election, quite a lot of non-child-murdering folk were tactically voted out, some based not on overall performance but on a single decision (their Brexit vote)

Except that all research shows that EU immigration has NOT impacted on workers pay levels, rights or employment prospects! There are no shortage of jobs its just their either isn't the workforce to do them or the jobs are in different places to where people who could do them live. There are also many jobs that people do not want to do, I for one am dying to see the rush of UK citizens to fill the gaps left when the pool of EU labour supposedly "preventing" them from getting jobs is no longer available and I am waiting breathlessly as wage rates soar - not going to happen.

[AdiSalisbury]

albeit we Brits were through geographic fortune able to provide a handy launch pad!

I had the pleasure of speaking to a very elderly lady today about her late husband, who was shot down during the war and died. Not sure geographic fortune is how I'd describe his efforts. I hope we aren't ever geographically fortunate to sleep under falling bombs again.

[Andy_Faber]

In point of fact it was the Americans who saved europe from the Nazi's, with a little help from the Russians, albeit we Brits were through geographic fortune able to provide a handy launch pad!

Sometimes you really go too far trying to make your points, I can think of a number of elderly friends/family members that that's a massive insult to, nice to see you are yet again pedalling your opinion as 'fact' by the way - the arrogance of the Remainer

[swaledale]

Sometimes you really go too far trying to make your points, I can think of a number of elderly friends/family members that that's a massive insult to, nice to see you are yet again pedalling your opinion as 'fact' by the way - the arrogance of the Remainer

All you have to do is read facts about the war and stop being believing jingoist nonesense! But then your not very keen on anything that does not fit your beliefs are you?

How is it belittling the efforts of our soldiers in the last war to talk about historical facts, its not my opinion its cold hard facts. Typical response from people who dont understand them it seems.

Fact 1 the Uk was saved from invasion by a combination of its geographical isolation from the rest of europe and the Nazi's initial reluctance to press home their advantage at Dunkirk - if you believe that we would not have suffered the same fate as France et al but for the English Channel then your myopic in the extreme.

Hitlers decision to invade Russia also contributed as he started a war on two fronts and in Russia a nation who could afford huge losses which they did and still be able to come back and beat him.

Hitlers decision to start bombing London and other cities rather than as his air chiefs wanted to do which was focus on destroying radar stations and airfields and our fighters was also a ***** element which led to him losing the battle of britain. Even the guys involved in it acknowledge that.

If your suggesting that without american troops and equipment we would have invaded and beaten the germans then frankly you must exist in some fantasy land where reality is some dim distant memory.

Non of this detracts from the efforts and sacrifice of those who fought, it does not suggest in any way that their contribution did not make a difference of course it did.

None this is my opinion, its all down in black and white by people who have studied these things.

But I have noticed a tendency by you to attribute anything you don't know about, dont wish to believe or does not fit in with your world view as being an opinion, but your ignorance is your problem not mine.

[ramAnag]

Well this isn’t very seasonal.

Sure Swale wasn’t being disrespectful to the memory of British soldiers anymore than others were being disrespectful to the French - and Germans - who fought equally bravely against the Nazis. The fact of the matter is though, regardless of how brave many of our older citizens undoubtedly were, the outcome of WW2 would have been entirely different without American and Russian involvement. That’s just a historical fact isn’t it?

Not sure how raising the matter of the expenses scandal of 2009 - and others as well - invalidates my point Ram 59. You are claiming that everything will be so much better when we are in control of our own financial destiny and I’m merely pointing out that those who will be entrusted with the nation’s purse strings have hardly got the greatest track record in terms of honesty, integrity and reliability.

Oh well, it’s all just forum disagreement which is kind of the point, or one of them, so Happy Christmas all, regardless of whether we agree or disagree.

[AdiSalisbury]

His agenda blinds his objectivity.

eg.

"Fact 1 the Uk was saved from invasion by a combination of its geographical isolation from the rest of europe and the Nazi's initial reluctance to press home their advantage at Dunkirk - if you believe that we would not have suffered the same fate as France et al but for the English Channel then your myopic in the extreme."

Opinion, presented as a Swaley fact, as usual blind to the many complexities involved in the campaign, that would have been equally as different and complicated if we were part of the mainland.

[MadAmster]

In point of fact it was the Americans who saved europe from the Nazi's, with a little help from the Russians, albeit we Brits were through geographic fortune able to provide a handy launch pad!

Net contributors to the EU budget, as are the germans, that overlooks the actual economic benefits of free trade etc.

US joined a war that started in 1914, in 1917. They joined a second in 1941 that had started in 1939. Up until that point, the UK was the only stumbling block in both cases.

€22 Billion a year trade deficit with Germany and €30 billion with the EU as a whole to add on to our net EU contribution.

[ramAnag]

His agenda blinds his objectivity.

eg.

"Fact 1 the Uk was saved from invasion by a combination of its geographical isolation from the rest of europe and the Nazi's initial reluctance to press home their advantage at Dunkirk - if you believe that we would not have suffered the same fate as France et al but for the English Channel then your myopic in the extreme."

Opinion, presented as a Swaley fact, as usual blind to the many complexities involved in the campaign, that would have been equally as different and complicated if we were part of the mainland.

But Adi...he may have been a tad more outspoken than most...but it’s true isn’t it?
The fact that we are an island has been historically important for centuries in terms of our defence and it does seem quite likely that we, the British, do have an overblown sense of ‘superiority’ as a result of having so rarely been ‘invaded’ and that in turn is largely down to incidental ‘geographic isolation’.
That’s not in any way belittling the efforts and bravery of our forefathers in two World Wars and many other conflicts...but it is the truth imo...and there is perhaps more than a hint of purposeful misinterpretation and point scoring in the reaction to Swale’s opinion.