OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

Interesting watching Question Time this evening, which is coming from Derby, the audience seem to be split possibly 75/25 in favour of continuing towards leaving EU which I'd say is similar to this forum. Fiona Bruce, massively impressive as a chairman, just made mincemeat of Diane Abbott (not difficult) but Bruce is a massive improvement on Dimbledore, facilitating discussion rather than promoting shouting matches. Maybe she should be promoted to speaker of the House
Edit: Abbott-baiting excepted, the people of Derby put a good show on this eve. Annan Menon also impressed, can he play full-back?

[Andy_Faber]

Of course we could follow the logic espoused by you and others on here and see where it gets us - a massive hit for the "ordinary person" and the 1% would still be lauding it, though maybe not in the UK, after all they have options all over the world.

That's a truth that many should suck up and accept like a bad medicine instead of whinging about 'distribution of wealth away from billionaires'. Ain't gonna happen, they are where they are, by accident, design or even by a bit of hard work, and their wealth gives them a power that makes them pretty much shockproof so long as nation states exist. Its a complete waste of breath moaning about them I'm afraid

[MadAmster]

1. We have a labour problem now - maybe your happy to live into your old age where the health and care services don't operate because there are no staff?

2. Who is going to be paying for your pension if nobody is producing stuff, if the economy isn't operating?

3. Who is going to be providing the goods and services you require if there is no labour force?

4. Who is going to provide your food?

!

1. Immigration. Not of the mass variety but bringing in qualified people to do the jobs currently open and pay them well for it. Pretty much the way Switzerland does.

2. If you remember, I am an ex-pat and I retired at 60 on my private pension. I would like to steer you to one of those earlier fatuous arguments of mine, that the crisis in pensions and care is down to successive governments ignoring the obvious for more than 60 years because to make any contingency plans would cost money and thus increase taxes and lessen their chances of being re-elected. The older members of society are now the victims of decades of politicians looking after themselves to the detriment of the rest. Where could the money come from? An obvious idea is to make sure the mega rich aka the 1% and the multinationals actually pay the correct % of taxes on ALL of their income. Do that and the gap in the UK budget may well be filled. Do it and Costa will not sell less coffee, McDonald's will not sell less hamburgers, Apple will not sell less iPhones etc etc etc. All that will happen is that the companies would pay more tax, shareholders would pay more tax and the rest of the UK would remain the same. Pay UK taxes on ALL income generated in the UK.

3. Your question is basically a repeat of #1 so my answer is the same as my answer to #1.

4. Farmers either foreign or domestic. Whwere will farmers get the staff to help them run their farms? See #1 and #3.

Going back to an earlier post, I asked you to do some explaining. You keep on with this holier than thou attitude because "you know more than we do" and "we don't understand". Instead of being so damned sanctimonious about it, why not tell us what is right, how we are wrong and give us some facts we can check to explain why we are wrong. All you have done so far is denegrate others without giving any foundation to your thoughts other than "you know more".

I asked you to enlighten us. I am still waiting but not holding my breath.

[ramAnag]

Interesting watching Question Time this evening, which is coming from Derby, the audience seem to be split possibly 75/25 in favour of continuing towards leaving EU which I'd say is similar to this forum. Fiona Bruce, massively impressive as a chairman, just made mincemeat of Diane Abbott (not difficult) but Bruce is a massive improvement on Dimbledore, facilitating discussion rather than promoting shouting matches. Maybe she should be promoted to speaker of the House
Edit: Abbott-baiting excepted, the people of Derby put a good show on this eve. Annan Menon also impressed, can he play full-back?

To be fair Andy...Dimbleby is now eighty years old and has, imo, set the bar pretty high as far as QT is concerned. Fiona Bruce has, I agree, made an impressive start but I suspect she’d readily admit she owes a lot to Dimbleby. Anyway, you probably believe they’re both ‘reds under the bed’.
I agree it appears that most of last night’s support in Derby was for ‘Leave’. Appearances can be deceptive though and while Leave were certainly louder and more vociferous there is a case for ‘empty vessels’.
On the subject of Diane Abbott, like Corbyn I believe her to be a decent person who is on the side of the downtrodden. Unfortunately and again like Corbyn she has become an electoral liability. She was hopelessly outmanoeuvred last night by the appallingly dreadful Isabel Oakeshott and in truth, my heart sinks every time she appears on TV. She does more damage to Labour and the ‘Remain’ cause than Farage, Johnson and Rees-Mogg put together.

[Andy_Faber]

To be fair Andy...Dimbleby is now eighty years old and has, imo, set the bar pretty high as far as QT is concerned. Fiona Bruce has, I agree, made an impressive start but I suspect she’d readily admit she owes a lot to Dimbleby. Anyway, you probably believe they’re both ‘reds under the bed’.
I agree it appears that most of last night’s support in Derby was for ‘Leave’. Appearances can be deceptive though and while Leave were certainly louder and more vociferous there is a case for ‘empty vessels’.

Not sure what reds under the bed means in this context, I think Dimbleby was fairly even handed during his tenure, likewise Bruce, I just think she's started well with a manner which roots out panel bull**** without causing havoc - DD struggled in later years I think. I think she's the best all round presenter on TV at the mo.

I was signifiant also last night (on a few programmes) that even some of those promoting a new ballot and/or abandoning Brexit accept the concept that both issues might be less about the number of people calling for each than the amount of noise those people are making - just an observation, the other observation from last night and a couple of features this morning on the wireless is that evangelists on both sides repeatedly offer heavily London-centric resons for their stances. Truly a nation of many nations

[Andy_Faber]

I asked you to enlighten us. I am still waiting but not holding my breath.

If you value your respiratory system, no, don't. I'm still waiting for enlightenment from 2,500 posts ago.

[Andy_Faber]

in truth, my heart sinks every time she appears on TV. She does more damage to Labour and the ‘Remain’ cause than Farage, Johnson and Rees-Mogg put together.

IMO Keir Starmer has his eyes on the prize and if that happens he will shuffle her off to the Department of Social Affair and Citizenship pdq

[Geoff Parkstone]

2. If you remember, I am an ex-pat and I retired at 60 on my private pension. I would like to steer you to one of those earlier fatuous arguments of mine, that the crisis in pensions and care is down to successive governments ignoring the obvious for more than 60 years because to make any contingency plans would cost money and thus increase taxes and lessen their chances of being re-elected. The older members of society are now the victims of decades of politicians looking after themselves to the detriment of the rest. Where could the money come from? An obvious idea is to make sure the mega rich aka the 1% and the multinationals actually pay the correct % of taxes on ALL of their income. Do that and the gap in the UK budget may well be filled. Do it and Costa will not sell less coffee, McDonald's will not sell less hamburgers, Apple will not sell less iPhones etc etc etc. All that will happen is that the companies would pay more tax, shareholders would pay more tax and the rest of the UK would remain the same. Pay UK taxes on ALL income generated in the UK.


4. Farmers either foreign or domestic. Whwere will farmers get the staff to help them run their farms? See #1 and #3.

#2 You are, as they say "alright Jack".You will, I imagine. have retired on a gilt edged teacher style pension or a company "final salary" defined benefits scheme. Many that preceded you will have not had the "corporate pension" and those that follow will, eventually, have their own private fund built up. Those in transition, say at 50, may be caught in a gap with neither.

Defined benefits are history - even in the civil service, the savings risk has been passed to the stakeholder. if you avoid equity investments and stay fixed rate or cash, you will not be likely to have covered the pension management fees over the last 6 or 7 years of negative to marginal interest rates. The new generation of defined contribution pension holder have been force to take a significantly less risk averse stance than they should with their pension savings. It has paid off generally over the past years, but if you "rape" company profits and shareholders, you are raping the pensioners of the future.

Oh and, by the way, Apple dont need the assistance of tax changes to manage to sell less iPhones, they have managed that all on their own!!

#4 Farmers need help to run their farms? Really? I grew up on a 150 acre arable farm - my Dad had 2 full time and occasional casual workers. My grand dad had maybe 12 workers on a similar unit. My brother currently farms 1000+ acres, has a significant contracting business and has 1 full time staff member and a few seasonal vehicle operatives

So the answer is that machinery has virtually replaced all labour, and those operators are being phased out by the arrival of self drive tractors etc and amazingly accurate GPS systems and mapping. All that is really needed is a few part time seasonal fruit and veg pickers if you are in that sector.

[ramAnag]

Not sure what reds under the bed means in this context, I think Dimbleby was fairly even handed during his tenure, likewise Bruce, I just think she's started well with a manner which roots out panel bull**** without causing havoc - DD struggled in later years I think. I think she's the best all round presenter on TV at the mo.

I was signifiant also last night (on a few programmes) that even some of those promoting a new ballot and/or abandoning Brexit accept the concept that both issues might be less about the number of people calling for each than the amount of noise those people are making - just an observation, the other observation from last night and a couple of features this morning on the wireless is that evangelists on both sides repeatedly offer heavily London-centric resons for their stances. Truly a nation of many nations

The ‘reds under the bed’ comment was meant lightheartedly in reference to your often repeated suspicions about the BBC.
Oddly I’ve had another disagreement with someone today who believes the BBC to favour ‘Leave’ far too much.

I think it was clear last night that those advocating ‘Remain’ were far more reserved and less ‘abrasive’ than many of the jeering and mocking ‘Remainers’. Bit of a worry...especially when coupled with the news today that ‘right wing extremism’ is actually the fastest growing form of terrorism in the UK...that came from Sky btw...none of your BBC liberal/lefty nonsense.

[Andy_Faber]

The ‘reds under the bed’ comment was meant lightheartedly in reference to your often repeated suspicions about the BBC.
Oddly I’ve had another disagreement with someone today who believes the BBC to favour ‘Leave’ far too much.

I think it was clear last night that those advocating ‘Remain’ were far more reserved and less ‘abrasive’ than many of the jeering and mocking ‘Remainers’. Bit of a worry...especially when coupled with the news today that ‘right wing extremism’ is actually the fastest growing form of terrorism in the UK...that came from Sky btw...none of your BBC liberal/lefty nonsense.

Well hopefully my comments about QT show I do have my moments of objectivity

[MadAmster]

#2 You are, as they say "alright Jack".You will, I imagine. have retired on a gilt edged teacher style pension or a company "final salary" defined benefits scheme. Many that preceded you will have not had the "corporate pension" and those that follow will, eventually, have their own private fund built up. Those in transition, say at 50, may be caught in a gap with neither.

Defined benefits are history - even in the civil service, the savings risk has been passed to the stakeholder. if you avoid equity investments and stay fixed rate or cash, you will not be likely to have covered the pension management fees over the last 6 or 7 years of negative to marginal interest rates. The new generation of defined contribution pension holder have been force to take a significantly less risk averse stance than they should with their pension savings. It has paid off generally over the past years, but if you "rape" company profits and shareholders, you are raping the pensioners of the future.

Oh and, by the way, Apple dont need the assistance of tax changes to manage to sell less iPhones, they have managed that all on their own!!

#4 Farmers need help to run their farms? Really? I grew up on a 150 acre arable farm - my Dad had 2 full time and occasional casual workers. My grand dad had maybe 12 workers on a similar unit. My brother currently farms 1000+ acres, has a significant contracting business and has 1 full time staff member and a few seasonal vehicle operatives

So the answer is that machinery has virtually replaced all labour, and those operators are being phased out by the arrival of self drive tractors etc and amazingly accurate GPS systems and mapping. All that is really needed is a few part time seasonal fruit and veg pickers if you are in that sector.

Seems my knowledge of farming is a tad out of date. Thanks for the update. All in all, Swales questions, designed to put me in a corner, appear to have backfired somewhat with me providing viable answers and you correcting me on one.

[ramAnag]

Not I, RA (GP can speak for himself)

1. I voted Remain, that's fact

2. I've been consistent in saying that, once the result was in, everyone in their own way should fully devote themselves to making Brexit work.

3. I've been consistent in pointing the finger of failure at those who didn't devote themselves in that manner. That cohort includes just about every politician I could name, and, regretrably also you.

4. I've been consistent in stating that if (if iF) the question was asked again I'd vote Remain again

5. The way I square the apparent contradiction of 3. and 4. is that I live in the here and now, where 4. is just a pipedream of a mardy minority, whereas 3. is something I can actually contribute to

Its back to the pragmatist versus idealist thing again

On a related subject, did you see 'Brexit An Uncivil War'? If you didn't you should, it nailed the pre-referendum farce in 90 mins. Fantastically cast, especially Arran Banks, not sure if you'd admire the portrayal or explode with rage at the renewed memory of Banks' existence. And if you want to cut to the quick of the whole thing, go to 1 hour 12 minutes on C4 catchup and watch the next minute, maybe a dramatised event but it crystallises the whole reason Remain lost, a single white female saying it loud and proud for the folk Martin Fry called 'the silent majority, seen and never heard'. As usual I'll sign this off by reminding you I voted, and would vote again, Remain

Okay Andy, I’ve eventually got round to watching it.
Thought it was as good as it was alarming and I agree, the portrayal of Aaron Banks was brilliant...nothing but a very wealthy political thug...and I’ve certainly not forgotten him.
The overwhelming thing for me was the further confirmation of the fact that Brexit has seen the democratic process hijacked and ‘bought off’ by the ‘dirty money’, lies and breaking of electoral rules by Banks and Co.
Given that context I’m staggered that you think everything is ‘crystallised’ by the ‘single white female’ who feels abandoned and disempowered by the system. It’s an important dramatic moment and I entirely understand both her frustration and your sympathy, but it is surely the UK establishment and British politicians not the EU that has created that situation.

[Andy_Faber]

Okay Andy, I’ve eventually got round to watching it.
Thought it was as good as it was alarming and I agree, the portrayal of Aaron Banks was brilliant...nothing but a very wealthy political thug...and I’ve certainly not forgotten him.
The overwhelming thing for me was the further confirmation of the fact that Brexit has seen the democratic process hijacked and ‘bought off’ by the ‘dirty money’, lies and breaking of electoral rules by Banks and Co.
Given that context I’m staggered that you think everything is ‘crystallised’ by the ‘single white female’ who feels abandoned and disempowered by the system. It’s an important dramatic moment and I entirely understand both her frustration and your sympathy, but it is surely the UK establishment and British politicians not the EU that has created that situation.

Glad you caught up with it.

I'm not sure I was making any big point about who created the situation, just that such a situation was indeed created.

In fact, until a few years ago, when my employment changed after 20 plus years from dealing mainly with other people in my company to dealing with 'the public', I would have had no sympathy with her, I wouldn't have even understood what she was ranting about, but I've now seen outside what I now realise was a 'bubble' I was living in, and can now completely see why folk made a decision contrary to that expected. There was SO much frustration bottled up within the 'class' (maybe that's not the right word) of people who I would describe as 'non-influencers', and I think the referendum was the point at which the top of the bottle popped off

[Andy_Faber]

The overwhelming thing for me was the further confirmation of the fact that Brexit has seen the democratic process hijacked and ‘bought off’ by the ‘dirty money’, lies and breaking of electoral rules

Not arguing against there being dirty money involved, but what struck ME, (and I always thought this was the case), was that the Remain effort was run by people acting and thinking like politicians and assuming that the voters would 'do the right thing', whereas Leave was driven by folk (or, it now appears, mainly by a single person) who treated it simply as a contest that was there to be won. There's actually nothing wrong with that IMO, regardless of whether I agree with the outcome or not

[ramAnag]

Not arguing against there being dirty money involved, but what struck ME, (and I always thought this was the case), was that the Remain effort was run by people acting and thinking like politicians and assuming that the voters would 'do the right thing', whereas Leave was driven by folk (or, it now appears, mainly by a single person) who treated it simply as a contest that was there to be won. There's actually nothing wrong with that IMO, regardless of whether I agree with the outcome or not

I can’t argue with that Andy and have never argued against the idea that the Remain campaign was dominated by complacency.
That’s not really the issue though imo. Complacency is a fault for sure, but aren’t the use of ‘dirty money’ - either from Aaron Banks, Russia or Robert Mercer - not to mention the deliberate misleading of the public and breaking of electoral rules far greater ‘sins’/crimes?
Much has been said, in defence of Leave, that to ignore the original Referendum would be a challenge to the democratic process, but surely what the programme exposed was that the democratic process has already been horribly and blatantly compromised.