OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Geoff Parkstone]

A few minefields along the beaches of the south coast will soon deal with those economic "refugees".

After all most people go on holiday yo Spain now, so they are mainly deserted

[swaledale]

Correct Swale, not all zero hour contracts are bad.

s***ty contracts with anti social hours. Junior doctor for a start, working in excess of 100 hours a week. We all know why that is and, due to the lack of Brits training to be doctors (nurses too) we have a constant need for immigrant workers.

A friend of mine works in the care industry. 3 day long shifts are part of the package. Sometimes she gets her full whack of sleep during a shift. At other times she might get less than 6 hours sleep over the 3 days.

What bugs me is the same old, same old from the politicians. Claiming there are more people working than ever before and that unemployment is low, even claiming it as virtually full employment levels. IMO, one hour a week isn't working, it isn't a job. People are working 3 and more jobs of varying lengths in hours and still not getting by. It is also my opinion that this scenario is something that those in power have nudged in, bit by bit, over the past 30 or so years.

The first party that promises to derail the corporate gravy train and even things out will win a landslide at a General Election. What everybody needs to realise though is that a single country can't do it alone. If the UK starts taxing Apple, Google et al the way they should be taxed, you can guarantee that they will move their HQ and/or Service Centres to a country that won't tax them. Hitting the multinationals has to be a concerted worldwide action to help the man in the street.

Well Junior Doctors are a case apart, so difficult to compare them doing a highly skilled vocational job (which has always had odd hours) to others grinding away relentlessly and being treated as units of production.

ironic that its only been the Eu with working time directives and similar initiatives that has actually attempted and succeeded in improving working conditions for the "ordinary person".

Ironic also that you realise that it takes concerted action to tackle the power of multi nationals (though many of the ****ty working conditions are actually with firms that are solely based in the UK, operate only in the Uk and owned or run by UK people! Again the EU has taken action on both working conditions and tax laws, one of the main things that the ultra hard brexiteers want is t be free of that regulation so they can impose even lower wages and harsher working conditions in order to increase their profits. Your correct that is what a section of the right wing "libertarian" faction of society have been aiming for for years and they are the prime movers behind Brexit!

Whilst the Eu isn't perfect it certainly provides more protection than a Brexit Uk will do - any concerted action would have to involve more than just european countries - no sign that China, India, the Us or Brazil are moving towards that direction so doomed to failure I'd say.

What the Uk could do, but hasn't is remove the tax breaks for very wealthy individuals who are so called ex pats and remove their influence over affairs through lobbying and the media. It could also be more stringent over money laundering, the amount of dirty money sloshing around from very dubious sources in the UK is appalling, but to that would upset a lot of people who ride that gravy train.

I doubt any party that promised to derail the corporate gravy train would even win many seats, that is what Corbyn (for all his faults as a leader) wants to do, and look how the right wing owned media and the current PM continually repeat how such a move would be disastrous for the country! Mind you it has ever been thus, the Sun which is apparently read by over 4 million people (most whom are no doubt "ordinary people") has a history of savagely attacking any hint of this - remember the howl of outrage when Miliband suggested capping energy prices?

We have a society where people will put up with absolute ****e IF they believe that there is even a million to one chance that one day they will get rich and join the exclusive club and be able to look down on the unfortunates they used to be part of.

[swaledale]

Mostly correct Mad.

The country does need immigrants. I don't think anyone denies that.
What it doesn't need is an open door policy and lax laws that allow people who enter legally, to slip away when their time is up,

Immigrants that skilled are welcome. Immigrants that are basic labour are welcome as needed.
But folks forget that too much immigration is a cause of the misery highlighted. You mentioned doctors /nurses. Of course we need them. But for every doctor needed, how many migrants have made that need a necessity?
It drives down wages, with the massive pool available. It loads the public services. The tax payer has to address the balance.

Other countries manage to run a fair migration policy. What's our problem?
Employers take advantage of the situation and the tax payer

Wrong on all counts - illegal immigration is an issue, but that down to government failure, not the Eu and will not change on Brexit.

EU immigrants have contributed to the UK's economy, they are the reason we have been successful, that after all is why they are here!

Your arguing against growth, thats a different issue and requires a different economic outlook, one which the state of the environment will eventually force on humans but not I suspect within mine or your lifetime.

The fact is we have a falling birth rate and increasing life spans, that creates an issue whereby there is not enough young people to fill the jobs within the economy, its nothing to do with employers taking advantage of the tax payer.

I mean how does that work anyway? I employ an immigrant who pays tax and national insurance in an activity which produces goods or provides a needed service that contributes to the economy which produces more tax revenue and economic activity.

You do really need to learn basic economics!

As for refugees, we ll part of that answer is working to improve the conditions in the countries they are fleeing from, if some of the billions spent on destroying Iraq for no good reason, had been spent on improving the country and others there might just be fewer refugees.

Much as its an appealing idea, pulling up the drawbridge and ignoring whats going on in the wider world isn't going to work and I think once climate change starts to increase, the situation will get a whole lot worse!

[AdiSalisbury]

The EU can't stop us degrading and in some cases removing all together certain employment protections. Let's not peddle that myth please

[mistaram]

Well Junior Doctors are a case apart, so difficult to compare them doing a highly skilled vocational job (which has always had odd hours) to others grinding away relentlessly and being treated as units of production.

ironic that its only been the Eu with working time directives and similar initiatives that has actually attempted and succeeded in improving working conditions for the "ordinary person".

Ironic also that you realise that it takes concerted action to tackle the power of multi nationals (though many of the ****ty working conditions are actually with firms that are solely based in the UK, operate only in the Uk and owned or run by UK people! Again the EU has taken action on both working conditions and tax laws, one of the main things that the ultra hard brexiteers want is t be free of that regulation so they can impose even lower wages and harsher working conditions in order to increase their profits. Your correct that is what a section of the right wing "libertarian" faction of society have been aiming for for years and they are the prime movers behind Brexit!

Whilst the Eu isn't perfect it certainly provides more protection than a Brexit Uk will do - any concerted action would have to involve more than just european countries - no sign that China, India, the Us or Brazil are moving towards that direction so doomed to failure I'd say.

What the Uk could do, but hasn't is remove the tax breaks for very wealthy individuals who are so called ex pats and remove their influence over affairs through lobbying and the media. It could also be more stringent over money laundering, the amount of dirty money sloshing around from very dubious sources in the UK is appalling, but to that would upset a lot of people who ride that gravy train.

I doubt any party that promised to derail the corporate gravy train would even win many seats, that is what Corbyn (for all his faults as a leader) wants to do, and look how the right wing owned media and the current PM continually repeat how such a move would be disastrous for the country! Mind you it has ever been thus, the Sun which is apparently read by over 4 million people (most whom are no doubt "ordinary people") has a history of savagely attacking any hint of this - remember the howl of outrage when Miliband suggested capping energy prices?

We have a society where people will put up with absolute ****e IF they believe that there is even a million to one chance that one day they will get rich and join the exclusive club and be able to look down on the unfortunates they used to be part of.

Great post Swales can't argue with any of that . The working time directive is a great piece of legislation to protect the hours an employee can be made to work . But as an employee I am required by law to give my employees a form to opt out They can then work what hours they wish ,only the Poles and one Latvian have so far signed one . Johnson sorted the immigration problem out within 48hrs of becoming PM he just scrapped the targets ,keep the plebs in the dark Can't see Johnson doing away with the sweetheart deals and tax breaks for the wealthy He's already pledge a tax reduction for the highest earners

[Trickytreesreds]

Wrong on all counts - illegal immigration is an issue, but that down to government failure, not the Eu and will not change on Brexit.

EU immigrants have contributed to the UK's economy, they are the reason we have been successful, that after all is why they are here!

Your arguing against growth, thats a different issue and requires a different economic outlook, one which the state of the environment will eventually force on humans but not I suspect within mine or your lifetime.

The fact is we have a falling birth rate and increasing life spans, that creates an issue whereby there is not enough young people to fill the jobs within the economy, its nothing to do with employers taking advantage of the tax payer.

I mean how does that work anyway? I employ an immigrant who pays tax and national insurance in an activity which produces goods or provides a needed service that contributes to the economy which produces more tax revenue and economic activity.

You do really need to learn basic economics!

As for refugees, we ll part of that answer is working to improve the conditions in the countries they are fleeing from, if some of the billions spent on destroying Iraq for no good reason, had been spent on improving the country and others there might just be fewer refugees.

Much as its an appealing idea, pulling up the drawbridge and ignoring whats going on in the wider world isn't going to work and I think once climate change starts to increase, the situation will get a whole lot worse!

Oh please, don't you lecture me on basic economics.
Most migrants working in this country, do so at the lower end of the scale.
They work for minimum wage or close to it. Please enlighten me as to how much tax is taken from them?
Please enlighten me, how much child benefit/housing benefit/NHS costs that flood of tax covers?

Don't try to kid everyone Swale. We know exactly how immigration works and it's the lower class that suffers.

I will agree with you on the outside EU migration. It's time that scam was stopped. Education/visiting/temporary visa's? Load of bollox. But it is controllable and the government(s) some more than others, have laxed the rules for their own agenda's.

But to walk into a country and around the EU with virtually no control? Naaaaaaw not for me.

PS MR those getting off boats afre not refugees/migrants or whatever you want to call them. They are illegal immigrants and according to EU RULES! should be returned immediately from point of origin.
It's ridiculous.

[mistaram]

Oh please, don't you lecture me on basic economics.
Most migrants working in this country, do so at the lower end of the scale.
They work for minimum wage or close to it. Please enlighten me as to how much tax is taken from them?
Please enlighten me, how much child benefit/housing benefit/NHS costs that flood of tax covers?

Don't try to kid everyone Swale. We know exactly how immigration works and it's the lower class that suffers.

I will agree with you on the outside EU migration. It's time that scam was stopped. Education/visiting/temporary visa's? Load of bollox. But it is controllable and the government(s) some more than others, have laxed the rules for their own agenda's.

But to walk into a country and around the EU with virtually no control? Naaaaaaw not for me.

PS MR those getting off boats afre not refugees/migrants or whatever you want to call them. They are illegal immigrants and according to EU RULES! should be returned immediately from point of origin.
It's ridiculous.

Tricky there are millions of British who work for minimum wage Migrants will or should be paying the same tax as anybody else There are rules about the amount of child benefit and any other benefits they may get The same rules apply to anybody working regardless of whether they are migrants or not As for outside the EU immigration our Universities NHS rely on non EU immigration You had a major operation last year and unless you paid private ,my guess is you would have needed the help of Non EU doctors or nurses

[Trickytreesreds]

Tricky there are millions of British who work for minimum wage Migrants will or should be paying the same tax as anybody else There are rules about the amount of child benefit and any other benefits they may get The same rules apply to anybody working regardless of whether they are migrants or not As for outside the EU immigration our Universities NHS rely on non EU immigration You had a major operation last year and unless you paid private ,my guess is you would have needed the help of Non EU doctors or nurses

Of course I did.
But what is that to do with what I said? My operation was on the NHS, but that statement baffles me? The workers are paid to do that job. Best nurse I had was from Slovenia. Great person/funny and a looker(bonus).
We need migrants where we need them. It doesn't mean a free for all for a never ending river.
I know the benefit rules well thank you.
It goes as far as sending child benefit back to your country of origin remember.

NHS workers, easy. Apply for a visa, it's approved you're in. Why all the screaming about NHS workers?
Universities, Easy apply for a study visa. It's approved your in. More follow up is required here, for bogus courses.
This one has the piss ripped out of it. Students come here to "study" yet not all do so. Those do, do not all leave when they should.

The whole point about what I am saying is. The flood of low skilled labour is killing a generation in this country.
I have interviewed countless under 19's. Some in tears about not being able to get a job/apprenticeship.
The times I heard a story of the job they wanted, being taken by an older east European, was endless.

I have to admit, I did discriminate against them at times. The future of our youth and country is at stake, so I did what I did.

[mistaram]

Thanks for all that do you think your trying to tell me something I didn't know So at the end of the day with your right wing bias . It is just about immigration say no more

[ramAnag]

Thanks for all that do you think your trying to tell me something I didn't know So at the end of the day with your right wing bias . It is just about immigration say no more

Think you’ve just about nailed it there, mista.
Since this thread began he’s been saying it’s because the EU is anti democratic...or he doesn’t approve of an EU army...but when it comes down to it, as with so many of the Brexit brigade, it’s all about immigration.

[AdiSalisbury]

Discussing immigration with a remainer is the equivalent of telling the wife to calm down

[Trickytreesreds]

Discussing immigration with a remainer is the equivalent of telling the wife to calm down

Agreed. You are not allowed to mention immigration.
They scream about finances, but all the other taboo's surrounding membership are not up for discussion.

Yes immigration is a main cause of the rebellion. The EU has made it that way.
But everyone with half an ounce of common sense knows, that the no borders policy is fuel for the one state ideology.
Like it or lump it. It is right up there as major cause of the EUSSR.

[ramAnag]

Discussing immigration with a remainer is the equivalent of telling the wife to calm down

Maybe, Adi...but I find the wife is often right.

‘Not allowed to mention immigration’...Tricky?
What complete nonsense...plenty of scope for a sensible honest discussion on the pros and cons of immigration...though probably not with those who seek to disguise the true nature of their support for Farage/Brexit or the minority that went around attacking and abusing ‘foreigners’ in the aftermath of the Referendum.

[Trickytreesreds]

Maybe, Adi...but I find the wife is often right.

‘Not allowed to mention immigration’...Tricky?
What complete nonsense...plenty of scope for a sensible honest discussion on the pros and cons of immigration...though probably not with those who seek to disguise the true nature of their support for Farage/Brexit or the minority that went around attacking and abusing ‘foreigners’ in the aftermath of the Referendum.

Oh behave.

Whenever the left/Liberals see people not doing as they want, the same bollox comes out. Nazi/bigot/racist scum/little Englander/xenophobe. It doesn't matter if you're a 90 year old grandad. You're still a closet Nazi to them.

Funny though if you close your eyes, you can apply that to those who love the shout loudest attention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMra4dyv74w

[ramAnag]

Oh behave.

Whenever the left/Liberals see people not doing as they want, the same bollox comes out. Nazi/bigot/racist scum/little Englander/xenophobe. It doesn't matter if you're a 90 year old grandad. You're still a closet Nazi to them.

Funny though if you close your eyes, you can apply that to those who love the shout loudest attention.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMra4dyv74w

If the cap fits, Tricky.
Personally I rarely use any of that terminology but I do find you, of all people, attacking those who ‘shout the loudest’ quite hysterical.

P.S. Talking of those who ‘shout the loudest’...did you see Johnson in Downing Street last night? Anything more hurried, repetitive and less statesmanlike I don’t believe I have ever seen from a senior politician...let alone a PM. He made May look professional!