OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Ah...all becomes clear...Tricky reads and believes (lol) the Daily Express. There's always one!

Have a look at all they've got wrong...from the weather (repeatedly) but any extreme makes a good story...to Muslim only toilets, the EU banning the sale of milk jugs, banning eggs being sold in dozens and supermarkets being forced to turn down freezers and fridges...it's all in the Daily Xenophobe...sorry...Express and it's invariably utter nonsense.

[southernram22]

You back for more Tricky? If your feeling sensitive about being labelled a xenophobe, I'd go back and read one of your posts which showed your true colours and your still peddling the criminals *******s as if its a crime wave.

You may believe certain things but the facts do not support your belief - yet again you infer that Anag and I had any faith in what Cameroon and his cronies were saying when I've repeatedly said I didn't.

We have immigration controls and so does the EU or what were the French playing at the other weekend? Its this idea that there is a great tide of immigrants coming into the country who are here to commit crimes, acts of terror or just to sponge off the state which is utter lies that is spouted by Brexit.

Now the point being argued that a mass immigration for work - which is what the vast majority of EU migrants do is changing the nature of the country, in certain areas is true, but the point is given we dont have people in the labour force with the right skills or willing to do certain jobs, how is leaving the EU going to change that?

As for the **** storm, well you seem almost gleeful that your predicting an apocalypse! What will most likely happen is that there will be shift in the EU, just a shame the Uk wont be there to influence and shape it.

despite tricky being a red he has one thing which you have failed to grasp as a human swale we still voted out rightly or wrongly . know why you cling on to some obscure hope that we may not invoke the leave clause or some legal challenge may overturn a government that has openly stated there will be no u turn people and democracy have voted. you have two choices really move on or move to europe. i would listen to youe views if you tried without sniping to listen to others its a free country i am sorry you have thrown dolly out of pram because you lost but there it is like it or leave it .

[ramAnag]

despite tricky being a red he has one thing which you have failed to grasp as a human swale we still voted out rightly or wrongly . know why you cling on to some obscure hope that we may not invoke the leave clause or some legal challenge may overturn a government that has openly stated there will be no u turn people and democracy have voted. you have two choices really move on or move to europe. i would listen to youe views if you tried without sniping to listen to others its a free country i am sorry you have thrown dolly out of pram because you lost but there it is like it or leave it .

Becoming a bit of a recurring theme this southern. Those who don't agree should 'move' away. Come to think of it, it was you who told me to 'go back to the beloved motherland' whatever that meant...Lancashire in my case.
How is it fair that those who don't agree with the 37% should be repeatedly told to leave their country? I don't know which way you vote but, when you lose at a General Election do you immediately join the other side? I suspect not.

[Trickytreesreds]

Ah...all becomes clear...Tricky reads and believes (lol) the Daily Express. There's always one!

Have a look at all they've got wrong...from the weather (repeatedly) but any extreme makes a good story...to Muslim only toilets, the EU banning the sale of milk jugs, banning eggs being sold in dozens and supermarkets being forced to turn down freezers and fridges...it's all in the Daily Xenophobe...sorry...Express and it's invariably utter nonsense.

Of course it's all nonsense, I could C&P other papers, but you'd dismiss it.
I've worked in a prison, have you?

It's foreign inmate population is exploding and they take great delight in the rich pickings they get here.

Lets move away from the UK.
Lets take Sweden, suspended its Schengen as did Denmark.
Why?
Because all too late they've realised this free movement and influx of migrants has caused great harm
Oh look a middle road paper- http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6796696.html

Forget that, the EU has a lax and open migrant policy that can and probably still does effect us.
You seem naive as to the consequences of a culture mix that hasn't been dripped in and educated.
The Nordics have since found out and now so are the Germans and French.

Here's an example of of the volatile situation, if the slightest thing offends. It isn't even up there with the cartoons upset me line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMtJzV3O4NI

The whole point is, you love a crumbling, out of control system. That in effect has turned Europe onto its head.

I aint on my own thinking this way. Lots of us thought so and voted OUT!!!!

You can cry and scream all you want, but its happening.
I'm glad I've distracted you with my "xenophobic" attitude. Its let you off the hook with your prophecies of doom the two of you cling to.

[southernram22]

my point is ramanag if you dont like obviously as swale does not the democratic right of people to offer up a different argument why belittle them with his views which even you have commented on are one sided . my view is why keep on belittling people who have other opinions. no i dont change sides its my view but as an adult i get on with life rather than trying to make others look silly which swale is obviously trying to do.
i dont care what 37% said but ramang it was more than the remain side would you not agree.

[ramAnag]

Don't recall describing Swale's arguments as 'one sided' but anyway, my point is...the Brexiteer 'victory' was meant to be in the name of 'democracy' but it's a bloody funny sort of democracy that leads to a minority - and whichever way you look at it that's what 37% is - then telling those who don't agree with them to leave if they don't like it. How does that work?

Tricky, check back a few posts and see who the 'prophet of doom' was. Come back when you've found that plot you've lost.

[southernram22]

free country my view was and is if you dont like the way the country voted its anyones right to move to countries still in the eu there thats quite plain not aimed at you or anyone else. it seems only you and swale seem to wish to continue to argue that a defeat in the polls is not really that . and by way ramanag why is it a minority because if the government had not purposly crashed the voting registration to extend it the poll would certainly been more to leave ? my view i am entitled to it.

[Andy_Faber]

my point is...the Brexiteer 'victory' was meant to be in the name of 'democracy' but it's a bloody funny sort of democracy that leads to a minority - and whichever way you look at it that's what 37% is - then telling those who don't agree with them to leave if they don't like it. How does that work?

Anag, you make some good points but this one is just daft- that's the way things have worked since Pongo was a pup, and I'm struggling to find any major UK public vote (referendum or election) where over 50% of the total population voted for the winning side. Given the long-standing closeness of opinion on Brexit right from the announcement of the referendum in the tory party manifesto, there was never any chance of either side achieving 50% of the total voting population, so why did you bother voting? By your logic a slight win by 'your' side remain would have been equally invalid....

[Ram59]

Using anags figures, why should we listen to the bleatings of a small minority of 34%, who voted to remain. Two thirds of the country didn't vote to stay in utopia, I mean the eu.

Surely, anyone feeling so strongly about the eu, should consider moving there, with all its advantages, before the 'xenophobic' brexiteers ruin this country.

[macstheman]

With regard to voting figures in our 'democracy' a majority means the most of those who voted whether in a General Election or a referendum! It is virtually unknown that the 'winner' has received support from the majority of the electorate, indeed a normal result will show that, whilst the 'winner' received a majority of votes cast, the majority of the electorate DID'NT vote for the 'winner'. That is how our system works. In fact many believe that by not having the active support of the majority actually strengthens our democracy because successive governments are continually scrutinised by the very majority that did not vote for them! (Post 281 emphasises this)

[ramAnag]

Okay...taking the last few points in some sort of order.

I understand the argument about our system rarely achieving a genuine majority but there is a difference between elections and referendums. At a General Election a choice is being made between anything from three to as many as eight or more candidates/choices so the chances of winning an overwhelming majority are much reduced. That is fundamentally different at a referendum. You have just two choices so should surely expect the winners to be able to achieve the support of more than 37% of the electorate. Personally I'd go further and suggest that in any two choice Referendum the 'winners' should be able to claim the support of numbers equivalent to at least 51% of the electorate and Andy...as for your point about 'a slight win' by the 'Remains' being equally invalid, didn't Mr. Farage make exactly that point on the eve of the vote?

Ram59...you've obviously taken exception to my description elsewhere of your 'xenophobic' tendencies but please don't make out that I believe all 'Brexiteers' to be xenophobes. I have never suggested that and I accept that there are valid arguments for leaving the EU including many economic ones that I don't actually understand as well as some others. What I do feel strongly about are those Brexiteers who doundoubtedly display xenophobic and racist behaviour. The type who believe the term 'immigrant' to be synonymous with 'rapist', '*** offender', 'undesirable' or worse and the type who, as soon as the result of the Referendum was announced, took it as giving them some sort of mandate to behave in a thoroughly objectionable way to perceived 'foreigners'.
You possibly also need to recognise that although only 34% voted to 'Remain' it is a fact that 63% did not vote to take the action we now seem intent on following.

Southern...you're right, it is a 'free country'...that's kind of my point. That's why the likes of myself and Swale, amongst a great many others, reserve the right to argue our point without being accused of 'bleating' or being told, rather self righteously imo, to go and live somewhere else if we don't like it. I'm not sure I understand your point about the government having purposely 'crashed the voting registration' but whichever way you look at it, 37% is a minority and having the support of just over one third of the electorate is not much of a mandate in a situation of such significance imo.

[Andy_Faber]

you fight your corner well Anag.

You mention the 'slight win' and I think the problem of the result being a 'binary option' unlike an election will work itsself out through time. I'm sure that few Remainers really wanted to retain everything on the EU agenda, vice versa the Brexiteers wanting to dump everything, and the result was a reflection of 'the country' wanting a different relationship with the EU, and the belief that the best deal negotiated by a seasoned politician (ie Cameron's deal) was just not good enough. Therefore 'the country' will ultimately accept a much stronger/more UK-advantageous deal whether it is inside or outside 'the EU' (whatever the EU is by then).

[AdiSalisbury]

RAmanag, you put forward a good argument, I agree the voting system is flawed, both for Referendum and General Election. For the latter, if it was based purely on number of votes / actual percentage, then UKIP as a party would have a greater representation (I didn't vote for them, but as an example of the system being unfair).

For the referendum, it may have only been 37% of the electorate for, and 35%(approx.) against, but should those with no interest in voting really be considered as votes lost? If they weren't sure what to vote for, or had no personal impact either way, then what positive effect either way could they accurately have on the result? Just playing devils advocate, but interested on your thoughts.

As it happens, I totally agree with you about the system, even though I voted the other way. It's easy in my position to say tough luck, so I understand and respect your (and other Remainers) position of unjust.

[macstheman]

I agree Adi. The simple fact is that we have used this system for an inordinate length of time (most would say very successfully) and whilst clearly it has it's faults at least the mandarins it creates get knocked out of their little empires pretty regularly. It is this unreliability of the system that is it's strength.Yes, referendums may be won by a minority but whilst the majority (if you include the non-voters) did'nt support the 'winner' a bigger majority won't have supported the loser!! Yes, it's simplistic but it seems to work!

[Andy_Faber]

A follower of the great philosopher Ayn Rand once wrote 'If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice', so all those who chose not to vote chose to let us who did decide for them!