OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

Sorry if I was ‘rewording’ or being repetitive, Andy. My use of the term ‘we’ referred to the the ‘national interest’ or, as I thought I’d initially made clear, the ‘population and economy’ of this country.

Yes I know, you were clear both times - that's what I was disagreeing with. I reiterate, most folk aren't especially bothered about something as nebulous as 'the national interest', they are bothered about what goes on in their own very small orbit. The farmer on the Irish border who thinks he will be ruined by the current proposals is to be sympathised with, but he is no different to a friend of mine who's online business, run through ebay, is blighted by UK-based folk of eastern european origin who treat winning an auction bid as the point at which they REALLY start negotiating. She can't wait or afford for a whole cultural group to change their ways and in her words wants 'Brexit to clip their wings' (ie a vain I think, hope that such folk will feel unwelcome and leave). Now you can (as you usually do) say that the two examples are 'different' but in one way there's no argument - both are only thinking about themselves, neither want to be collateral damage to any decision made 'in the national interest'

[ramAnag]

Yes I know, you were clear both times - that's what I was disagreeing with. I reiterate, most folk aren't especially bothered about something as nebulous as 'the national interest', they are bothered about what goes on in their own very small orbit. The farmer on the Irish border who thinks he will be ruined by the current proposals is to be sympathised with, but he is no different to a friend of mine who's online business, run through ebay, is blighted by UK-based folk of eastern european origin who treat winning an auction bid as the point at which they REALLY start negotiating. She can't wait or afford for a whole cultural group to change their ways and in her words wants 'Brexit to clip their wings' (ie a vain I think, hope that such folk will feel unwelcome and leave). Now you can (as you usually do) say that the two examples are 'different' but in one way there's no argument - both are only thinking about themselves, neither want to be collateral damage to any decision made 'in the national interest'

I think perhaps we need to define ‘national interest’.
Sadly people are often, as you suggest, politically selfish and will vote for what benefits them individually first and foremost.
The Welsh farmers are a case in point...voted for Brexit until it became apparent what increased tariffs would do to their industry.

Better health provision, better education, better law enforcement, better housing, improved social care for the elderly, better public transport, improved roads, better child care, improved workers’ rights, cheaper energy and greater attention given to climate change strategies are all undeniably in the ‘national interest’. Unfortunately I can’t see how any of those things are likely to be delivered more reliably against a backdrop of a potentially ruinous Brexit deal.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Now let's consider the "I" side of your "We" issues rA

Better health provision (ive got private health care)
better education (my kids have left school)
better law enforcement (it's relatively law abiding where I live)
better housing (I own a nice one already)
improved social care for the elderly (I'm not too bothered about social care) better public transport (whilst I agree in principal here, I realise it won't happen)
improved roads (perhaps but no high priority to me)
better child care (my kids are past this) , improved workers’ rights
(no thanks)
cheaper energy (it costs what it costs in a global market economy, Brexit won't change it)
and greater attention given to climate change strategies (agree but unsure how Brexit impacts it)

So there is an "I" vs "we" polemic.

[Trickytreesreds]

"Liberals are only interested in people who think like them."

Piers Morgan.

[ramAnag]

Now let's consider the "I" side of your "We" issues rA

Better health provision (ive got private health care)
better education (my kids have left school)
better law enforcement (it's relatively law abiding where I live)
better housing (I own a nice one already)
improved social care for the elderly (I'm not too bothered about social care) better public transport (whilst I agree in principal here, I realise it won't happen)
improved roads (perhaps but no high priority to me)
better child care (my kids are past this) , improved workers’ rights
(no thanks)
cheaper energy (it costs what it costs in a global market economy, Brexit won't change it)
and greater attention given to climate change strategies (agree but unsure how Brexit impacts it)

So there is an "I" vs "we" polemic.

With respect GP, I think you’re missing the point.
I am in much the same position as you describe (private health care aside) but unless you’re suddenly subscribing to the Thatcher mentality of ‘no such thing as society’ then even though better health care, schooling, policing, social housing etc may no longer impact directly on you, or to a lesser extent me, it is surely still in all our interests to live in a more caring and compassionate society.

Ironically yesterday’s party political broadcast - sorry Queen’s Speech - directed attention to exactly the areas described above, i.e. areas which the very same Tory Party have cut savagely over the austerity years following the banking crisis.

So, setting aside any accusations of Oswald Farage’s racist, jingoistic sub text, Cummings’ bullying, Johnson’s Little Britain-Britannia Rules the Waves dreamland or the relative privileges that you (and I) appear to enjoy, the simple question is...will leaving the EU make us more or less able to afford the improvements demanded by society?

At the last Referendum the people were clearly lied to and hoodwinked. Yesterday’s ‘Queen’s Speech’ appeared to me to be starting off that whole process all over again in an alarmingly similar way, so - with apologies to Andy - the question above remains unanswered. This is what needs clearly and objectively explaining although it appears the planned Saturday sitting now appears to be in doubt.

[Geoff Parkstone]

The concept of "society" is an interesting one, and not really part of a Brexit debate. Yes, Brexit will impact on money available to spend on societal issues, but so will defence budget, tax policy etc etc

The question of how much funds should be allocated to "society" is much bigger than Brexit, and, to a large extent, not a Brexit question. Aggregate revenue generation post Brexit (be it greater or lesser) can always be topped up if there is a will of parliament to focus spending on these things.

You cannot automatically assume that Brexit will see a reduction in spending on these things, no matter how one eyed you decide to be

[mistaram]

[QUOTE=Manofpride;39344619]He's doing his best to give what the majority of people voted for, and that's leave!
He can see the minority who wanted to stay are trying everything in their power to scupper it. We all have opinions of whats going to happen but the fact is no one knows! Everyone in the UK should now get on board to make this break from the EU as smooth and quickly as possible then all work together to try and get this Country back on it's feet where it belongs. I'm still convinced that there are people out there who want this to fail just to say I told you so. Boris is having none of it and although the remainers are throwing all the **** they can gather to throw at him he still stands resilient. Boris is getting the job done, the remainers know it and that's why they hate him. Remainers all bullie

Doesn't it worry you that nobody knows what's going to happen Because if you were trying to run a business it would sure worry you

[ramAnag]

The concept of "society" is an interesting one, and not really part of a Brexit debate. Yes, Brexit will impact on money available to spend on societal issues, but so will defence budget, tax policy etc etc

The question of how much funds should be allocated to "society" is much bigger than Brexit, and, to a large extent, not a Brexit question. Aggregate revenue generation post Brexit (be it greater or lesser) can always be topped up if there is a will of parliament to focus spending on these things.

You cannot automatically assume that Brexit will see a reduction in spending on these things, no matter how one eyed you decide to be

How am I being ‘one eyed’? I’m trying desperately to introduce some objectivity here.

I am asking for all the allegations, however well founded they may be, to be set aside and for us somehow to simplify this down to answering the question...is Johnson’s new deal going to make us wealthier or less wealthy than we currently are as members of the EU.

That surely needs to be information available to Parliament prior to the vote and the people in the event of a second Referendum.

As either an accountant or a retired woodwork teacher I’d have thought you’d appreciate the quantifiable value of numbers.

Given that Brexiteers claim the support of the so called ‘dispossessed’ it could be argued that Brexit is very much a ‘societal issue’...add to that the impact of the cost of Brexit on budgetary money available to solve social issues and problems and I’d argue it absolutely is.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I would contend that the dispossessed tend to have nothing to lose in the first place, so cannot fear the financial consequences of Brexit.

Their motivation to my mind is more grounded in making other people worse off, to satisfy some sort of jealousy perhaps? Kick out the poles to "get our jobs back", throw out the Slovaks who are taking our hospital beds etc. The dispossessed seem happy to bring others down to their level, rather than applying diligence to raising themselves up.

This is not to tar all brexiteers with that brush, but rather to direct observations on the group you brought up.

[MadAmster]

Other news....... is there other news? Even the EU side is sounding half confident of a deal in the near future......... might the prospect of such a deal force BoJo to go for a 1 month extension if they are really close but not there yet? Stranger things have happened. Makes a change from the usual doom and gloom from Brexit talks anyway.

[Trickytreesreds]

Not arguing for any one here. But didn't Merkel say yesterday, that they have to consider the UK as a serious rival like USA/China on the global market? That sounds worrying for them, if she's saying it.

[Geoff Parkstone]

It would be ironic if the deal went through, with only a limited (but enough) approval by parliament, on the 5th November. This time Parliaments could be undermined again, BoJo can be tossed onto the bonfire and rA will gleefully light the pyre.

[swaledale]

He's doing his best to give what the majority of people voted for, and that's leave!
He can see the minority who wanted to stay are trying everything in their power to scupper it. We all have opinions of whats going to happen but the fact is no one knows! Everyone in the UK should now get on board to make this break from the EU as smooth and quickly as possible then all work together to try and get this Country back on it's feet where it belongs. I'm still convinced that there are people out there who want this to fail just to say I told you so. Boris is having none of it and although the remainers are throwing all the **** they can gather to throw at him he still stands resilient. Boris is getting the job done, the remainers know it and that's why they hate him. Remainers all bullies IMO!

No they dislike a lying two faced philandering toerag who hasn't an ounc eof decency in his body and is only a leaver because it suits his political ambitions!

If you think Brexit is the path to getting this country back on its feet (whatever the **** that means? Wasn't aware we had an issue to until that **** Cameron held a referendum which as events over the past three years have shown was beyond the understanding of most people!).

This majority you talk about, thats 25 in favour out of 37% who voted? Mm that seems to me a very small majority and so anyone who claims its "the will of the people" or what the majority voted for is stretching the facts rather widely.

In point of fact there is zero chanc eof a deal and that lying ******* who is somehow the countries Pm knows that and continues to spin his lies and deceit, but oh dear the stupid and clueless think he is their saviour!

Laugh you couldn't make it up, first you laud a rich stockbroker who hob knobs with some of the most right wing anti ordinary people around and thin that somehow his populous ****e means he is on your side - stupid, credible, gormless witless bloody hell there is no end to the stupidity of somepeople who will believe any old ****e as long as it somehow equates to what they believe.

[swaledale]

Other news....... is there other news? Even the EU side is sounding half confident of a deal in the near future......... might the prospect of such a deal force BoJo to go for a 1 month extension if they are really close but not there yet? Stranger things have happened. Makes a change from the usual doom and gloom from Brexit talks anyway.

Not a ****ing chance in hell of a deal, unless there is a spectacular cave in by that lying ******* who is currently our PM and bringing shame on this once proud country!

[swaledale]

[QUOTE=mistaram;39344775]

He's doing his best to give what the majority of people voted for, and that's leave!
He can see the minority who wanted to stay are trying everything in their power to scupper it. We all have opinions of whats going to happen but the fact is no one knows! Everyone in the UK should now get on board to make this break from the EU as smooth and quickly as possible then all work together to try and get this Country back on it's feet where it belongs. I'm still convinced that there are people out there who want this to fail just to say I told you so. Boris is having none of it and although the remainers are throwing all the **** they can gather to throw at him he still stands resilient. Boris is getting the job done, the remainers know it and that's why they hate him. Remainers all bullie

Doesn't it worry you that nobody knows what's going to happen Because if you were trying to run a business it would sure worry you

I doubt he would even know howto try to run a business! So we are prepared to **** aerospace, automobile, pharmaceuticals, finance, chemicals and agriculture in order to gain completely illusory "control" over something which we had in fact never lost control of?

Yep seems an entirely sensible idea to me, lets **** the country's economy for a decade just to satisfy the ravings of a less than a third of the Uk's population!