OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

To be fair tho rA the rules aren't based on evidence and straightforwardness are they? Since the last lockdown ended I've just ignored whatever *******s the government has said, it changes from day to day and frankly its relevance to me is minimal. And since Cummings broke the guidance and Johnson and other Ministers backed him up, its no surprise that many are pissed off with a government preaching what to do and then condoning colleagues who do the opposite.

I follow my own instinct on these matters and as I avoid others most of the time (apart from shopping) have no impact on others.

Where I am we entered lockdown in tier 1 and have come out of it into tier 2, there is absolutely no logic for that as far as i can see and its again hardly surprising if people can't see the logic then they wont follow the guidance.

Perhaps that half of the country who feel its *******s are right? That actually you can't believe a word that this government says and they have lives, jobs and other health conditions to deal with that are going to impact on them greater than corona virus will?

Gove was scaremongering about hospitals being full, nationally the occupancy is no higher than for a "normal" November and a relative of mine who works in a hospital up in the North West reports the same.

Those that want to isolate themselves or hide away, fine, but there are many preaching about this on social media and my immediate reaction is "get a life" look out for yourself.

I very much agree with much of what you’ve said and I too rely on common sense more than instructions from a Government who break their own rules and are made up of individuals I don’t trust anyway.

Having said that, I was in a part of Southern Europe which had a particularly low incidence of Covid during September and early October - yes I did follow the rules about self isolation scrupulously when we returned - and noticed an enormous difference in terms of mask wearing compliance over there compared with Derbyshire. It was also very noticeable that our QR codes were checked thoroughly on entry to Europe and not at all upon our return to the UK.

I despair of that and of the variations between the way pubs are/were adhering to the rules prior to Lockdown 2. Probably only been in four but while some are excellent others don’t appear to care. I also despair of those who seem to think that being caught is a greater problem than actually breaking the rules. I was in a restaurant the week before Lockdown 2 where the owner was full of tales of the dishonest extremes people will go to to try and get around the restrictions on numbers.

[MadAmster]

It would help is all of the rules made sense. Many don't.

[ramAnag]

It would help is all of the rules made sense. Many don't.

Very true MA, but basic common sense suggests social distancing, proper hand washing and mask wearing all help enormously.
Shouldn’t stretch people’s imagination too much to recognise that mixing as carefully as possible with as small a number of people as possible are the keys until the vaccines have an impact.

I fear, just as there’ll be a marked rise in the USA following last week’s Thanksgiving holiday there’ll be another major spike following the Christmas/New Year break.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I couldn't agree more rA in that the typical british joe public seems to delight in finding ways round rules. Its easy to say they are confusing, dont make sense to some people etc but the reality is people are not breaking the hard to understand ones. Rules say "wear masks in shops" with a few medical grounds for exemption. Not difficult, not confusing, simple clear - yet people dont do it. Its not because they dont understand the rules, its because they cant be arsed. The man in shorts in December mentality that I have referenced before.

I don't know how confusing the rules are in other European countries myself, except that I know Greeks and Italians who say they aren't crystal clear. These two nationalities are mostly experts at bending rules (I know a sweeping generalisation) and their governments are not best known for precision in rule making, but the people do follow the simple and obvious things to the letter: eg mask wearing, hand sanitising etc. We dont

I'm not saying this to defend the government who do seem to have over complicated some things and been guilty of muddled thinking, but I honestly feel that even if there were straight forward things (like masks, distancing and cleanliness) spelled out in plain english as the only rules, these ****tish brits would still not obey them almost on a point of principle.

[ramAnag]

I couldn't agree more rA in that the typical british joe public seems to delight in finding ways round rules. Its easy to say they are confusing, dont make sense to some people etc but the reality is people are not breaking the hard to understand ones. Rules say "wear masks in shops" with a few medical grounds for exemption. Not difficult, not confusing, simple clear - yet people dont do it. Its not because they dont understand the rules, its because they cant be arsed. The man in shorts in December mentality that I have referenced before.

I don't know how confusing the rules are in other European countries myself, except that I know Greeks and Italians who say they aren't crystal clear. These two nationalities are mostly experts at bending rules (I know a sweeping generalisation) and their governments are not best known for precision in rule making, but the people do follow the simple and obvious things to the letter: eg mask wearing, hand sanitising etc. We dont

I'm not saying this to defend the government who do seem to have over complicated some things and been guilty of muddled thinking, but I honestly feel that even if there were straight forward things (like masks, distancing and cleanliness) spelled out in plain english as the only rules, these ****tish brits would still not obey them almost on a point of principle.

Well that makes a welcome change...agreement.
The biggest difference between Spain and the UK was that masks were mandatory in public places - except peculiarly beaches. Compliance was at least 90%. Even motorcyclists and cyclists wore them although horse riders, possibly because of their extra height, seemed exempt.
The worst offenders seemed to be Brits, of about our age or older, on their way back from restaurants when inane grins replaced masks.

[swaledale]

Well that makes a welcome change...agreement.
The biggest difference between Spain and the UK was that masks were mandatory in public places - except peculiarly beaches. Compliance was at least 90%. Even motorcyclists and cyclists wore them although horse riders, possibly because of their extra height, seemed exempt.
The worst offenders seemed to be Brits, of about our age or older, on their way back from restaurants when inane grins replaced masks.

I don't see the level of non compliance where I am, masks, social distancing and using sanitiser all seem to be observed by the vast majority of people. I can only report this from my shopping experiences as I've avoided other indoor situations apart from the 4 meals out I ahve had.

Wearing a mask outside is pointless and ineffective. Outside the research shows that you need to be in close proximity with someone in excess of 20 mins to stand even a chance of being infected, so unless your in a crowd and unable to social distance there is no need to wear a mask outside, frankly masks are more a visual "confidence" symbol and a demonstration of compliance rather than any practical use.

The Brexit thread seems to be turning into the Covid thread for some reason!

[ramAnag]

I don't see the level of non compliance where I am, masks, social distancing and using sanitiser all seem to be observed by the vast majority of people. I can only report this from my shopping experiences as I've avoided other indoor situations apart from the 4 meals out I ahve had.

Wearing a mask outside is pointless and ineffective. Outside the research shows that you need to be in close proximity with someone in excess of 20 mins to stand even a chance of being infected, so unless your in a crowd and unable to social distance there is no need to wear a mask outside, frankly masks are more a visual "confidence" symbol and a demonstration of compliance rather than any practical use.

...and yet, although Covid has hit Spain hard...in the nearest town to where we stayed, pop. 19500, they’d had just 7 (seven) known cases since the onset of the pandemic and adults and children alike - even in schools - wore masks.

[Geoff Parkstone]

maybe its down to the magic of garlic in the diet

[swaledale]

...and yet, although Covid has hit Spain hard...in the nearest town to where we stayed, pop. 19500, they’d had just 7 (seven) known cases since the onset of the pandemic and adults and children alike - even in schools - wore masks.

And your point is?

[ramAnag]

And your point is?

I’d have thought it was obvious...in a place where mask wearing by children and adults alike was much more prevalent there were far fewer cases of Covid. It may or may not be coincidence but it causes little inconvenience and does no harm to give it a try.

[Geoff Parkstone]

There could be any number of reasons but, as you say there is no downside to wearing a mask that I can see. But it would never happen here as your average Brit wont do things BECAUSE they are asked to, it seems

Mind you, it could also be that covid knew you were visiting and its didn't want to catch the virus known as ramAnag?

[swaledale]

I’d have thought it was obvious...in a place where mask wearing by children and adults alike was much more prevalent there were far fewer cases of Covid. It may or may not be coincidence but it causes little inconvenience and does no harm to give it a try.

I can tell you weren't a science teacher! Making An unverified assumption based on one observation of a particular situation, mm.

So the fact that scientifically the following is true, virus transmission outside requires a minimum of 20 minutes close proximity face to face with an infected person you are of the opinion that everyone should wear a mask outside?

As for the generalisation that the Brits aren't wearing masks, well thats not true for my observations in shops and when I've been to London and other towns, generally compliance seems to be very good.

Then there is the issue that the vast majority of transmission is according to the research taking place inside homes and in some cases work places such as food processing. Its interesting that for all the fuss about hospitality, there has not been a huge number of cases arising from pubs and restaurants.

I'm not saying that masks aren't a good thing inside, but the general wearing of them at all times is bonkers, more psychological both for the wearer and others than actual effect.

[ramAnag]

I can tell you weren't a science teacher! Making An unverified assumption based on one observation of a particular situation, mm.

So the fact that scientifically the following is true, virus transmission outside requires a minimum of 20 minutes close proximity face to face with an infected person you are of the opinion that everyone should wear a mask outside?

As for the generalisation that the Brits aren't wearing masks, well thats not true for my observations in shops and when I've been to London and other towns, generally compliance seems to be very good.

Then there is the issue that the vast majority of transmission is according to the research taking place inside homes and in some cases work places such as food processing. Its interesting that for all the fuss about hospitality, there has not been a huge number of cases arising from pubs and restaurants.

I'm not saying that masks aren't a good thing inside, but the general wearing of them at all times is bonkers, more psychological both for the wearer and others than actual effect.

No, I was hopeless at Science...never understand what me being a retired teacher has to do with anything though, or which bit of ‘may or may not be coincidence’ you missed.

By your own admission you, quite reasonably imo, don’t trust most of the advice about Covid or the handling of it, so why be so certain about the validity of the twenty minute rule? Not sure about your shopping habits but when I go shopping it’s very unlikely I’d be engaging in ‘20 mins close proximity face to face with’ anyone, so why are you bothering to wear one in shops?

I agree about the general compliance amongst Brits in shops...my point was that, unlike the area of Spain I visited, such compliance does not extend, for many, beyond shops.

I’m not sure about the hospitality issue...there have been many suggestions that the ‘eat out to help out’ initiative was entirely counterproductive as far as the spread of Covid was concerned, and the hospitality industry has basically been closed down for the last month with people staying at home so there would be more incidents of the virus spreading via home, work place, school and supermarkets wouldn’t there?

Just as you are not saying that ‘masks aren’t a good thing’, I’m not saying that they’re the answer. It was a simple observation that, in a part of Europe with stricter rules regarding masks the occurrence of Covid was particularly low. Would I wear one in a town centre? Yes. Would I wear one in a shop or petrol station? Always. Would I wear one when answering the door to a delivery driver? Yes...and expect them to too.
Would I wear one when walking or exercising in a rural area? No. Would I wear one when driving? Never.
Just my way of hopefully staying safe.

[swaledale]

No, I was hopeless at Science...never understand what me being a retired teacher has to do with anything though, or which bit of ‘may or may not be coincidence’ you missed.

By your own admission you, quite reasonably imo, don’t trust most of the advice about Covid or the handling of it, so why be so certain about the validity of the twenty minute rule? Not sure about your shopping habits but when I go shopping it’s very unlikely I’d be engaging in ‘20 mins close proximity face to face with’ anyone, so why are you bothering to wear one in shops?

I agree about the general compliance amongst Brits in shops...my point was that, unlike the area of Spain I visited, such compliance does not extend, for many, beyond shops.

I’m not sure about the hospitality issue...there have been many suggestions that the ‘eat out to help out’ initiative was entirely counterproductive as far as the spread of Covid was concerned, and the hospitality industry has basically been closed down for the last month with people staying at home so there would be more incidents of the virus spreading via home, work place, school and supermarkets wouldn’t there?

Just as you are not saying that ‘masks aren’t a good thing’, I’m not saying that they’re the answer. It was a simple observation that, in a part of Europe with stricter rules regarding masks the occurrence of Covid was particularly low. Would I wear one in a town centre? Yes. Would I wear one in a shop or petrol station? Always. Would I wear one when answering the door to a delivery driver? Yes...and expect them to too.
Would I wear one when walking or exercising in a rural area? No. Would I wear one when driving? Never.
Just my way of hopefully staying safe.

I prefer to act on the basis of evidence rather than some assumption, but you pays your money and takes your choice.

back to the topic of this thread I see Hapless hancock made some spurious claim that brexit had menat the Uk could approve the Covid vaccine quicker, a claim quickly denied by No 10 spokesperson and not true as we are still operating under the EU regulatory authority so nothings changed.

Then Williamson made some jingoistic remark about the Uk being better than those "other" countries as to why we have approved a vaccine! Mm and this about a vaccine that has been developed by a Hungarian immigrant amongst others!

They really have no shame this government when it comes to telling utter lies!

[ramAnag]

Absolutely no ‘assumption’...just observation, personal choice and common sense.

Either way...moving on and back to our relationship with Europe, I completely agree with you and am alarmed at the almost childlike Government desire to be able to shout, ‘we were first!’
Be delighted if this is not yet another false dawn caused by UK politicians falling over themselves to take the credit for a vaccine which, I think, has been created in German labs and now awaits delivery from Belgium.
The rest of Europe seems to be showing more restraint, perhaps wisely so...let’s see if it kills the Brits first?
I’m as keen as anyone for life to return to normal but, selfishly, am almost grateful I’m only in tier 5 of the list of recipients.