OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

the elected/unelected thing was a side issue, as I've said before most Brexiteers wanted a reduction in immigration, and my obseervation is that they will get that but regrettably only the useful ones

Interesting observation, who are the useless ones?

[Andy_Faber]

Interesting observation, who are the useless ones?

'Useless' is a contentious word (as I'm sure you realised) and isn't appropriate in this case. In purely economic terms, anyone who's existence increases the country's GDP per capita more by being present than not (easier to work out in a producing job than in a non-producing job) is of value to the country. By elimination, in economic terms, anyone failing this test isn't of value. That's not an opinion, that's just economics, and it applies to the whole population. If you want real examples I can provide them, and not especially UK examples

[Geoff Parkstone]

Interesting observation, who are the useless ones?

Might I nominate the 100s of Romanian prostitutes and their handlers that work in Ilford?

[Trickytreesreds]

Might I nominate the 100s of Romanian prostitutes and their handlers that work in Ilford?

There's 4000 EU nationals in England/Welsh jails for a start. Pretty useless to me.

[ramAnag]

'Useless' is a contentious word (as I'm sure you realised) and isn't appropriate in this case. In purely economic terms, anyone who's existence increases the country's GDP per capita more by being present than not (easier to work out in a producing job than in a non-producing job) is of value to the country. By elimination, in economic terms, anyone failing this test isn't of value. That's not an opinion, that's just economics, and it applies to the whole population. If you want real examples I can provide them, and not especially UK examples

Slight side issue...can you be a little clearer and clarify how you differentiate between a ‘producing job’ and a ‘non producing job’ and why you seem to be linking the value of employment to increasing GDP?

[swaledale]

Might I nominate the 100s of Romanian prostitutes and their handlers that work in Ilford?

You can, though presumably like drug dealers they are serving a market, which ironically is likely to be substantially people who voted Brexit!

Can you verify your claim of 100's and the nationality?

[Andy_Faber]

You can, though presumably like drug dealers they are serving a market, which ironically is likely to be substantially people who voted Brexit!

Can you verify your claim of 100's and the nationality?

So you make a presumption you clearly can't subtantiate then question someone else's claim. What's going on with you Swale?

[swaledale]

'Useless' is a contentious word (as I'm sure you realised) and isn't appropriate in this case. In purely economic terms, anyone who's existence increases the country's GDP per capita more by being present than not (easier to work out in a producing job than in a non-producing job) is of value to the country. By elimination, in economic terms, anyone failing this test isn't of value. That's not an opinion, that's just economics, and it applies to the whole population. If you want real examples I can provide them, and not especially UK examples

On balance then immigration brought in more useful people and we may as you say suffer economically from this.

[Geoff Parkstone]

You can, though presumably like drug dealers they are serving a market, which ironically is likely to be substantially people who voted Brexit!

Can you verify your claim of 100's and the nationality?

Nor from direct personal experience!! However I have friends who live there and its a constant grouse that the area is beset with such tradespeople and the scum who live off them. A swift google suggests there is definitely fire behind that smoke. Yes I guess they serve a use, and perhaps I am being judgemental by confusing "use" with "value"

Other Eastern European nationals are available

[Geoff Parkstone]

On balance then immigration brought in more useful people and we may as you say suffer economically from this.

I would concur with that - on balance more useful people than useless

[Andy_Faber]

Slight side issue...can you be a little clearer and clarify how you differentiate between a ‘producing job’ and a ‘non producing job’ and why you seem to be linking the value of employment to increasing GDP?

Not GDP rA, GDP per capita, so how much someone is adding to the national 'good' by existing as opposed to not existing. And as an economic value its clearly only one facet of 'usefulness'

A machinist making a widget which is then sold is a 'producer' - easy to put a monetary value on

A nurse or teacher doing their thing for the benefit of patients or students - no DIRECT way of valuing that but clearly they are adding value through the increased wellbeing of others

Interestingly, and I've mentioned this before, UK national productivity excludes those in state run health and education, wheras in other countries they are included (at a high level of productivity, hence skewing the comparisons)

[swaledale]

So you make a presumption you clearly can't subtantiate then question someone else's claim. What's going on with you Swale?

Ah lesson in grammar, the word "presumably" qualifies a statement indicating it hasn't been substantiated, or is a view or opinion!

GP just made a bold statement with unsubstantiated numbers of a certain nationality and I was just curious as to whether this was his opinion or based on some factual evidence.

I presume the part you query is that Brexit supporters are not or would not be a customer of a prostitute or drug dealer? Again I used the word substantial, to indicate that many would be and actually I would, if I could be bothered, able to substantiate (note the correct spelling) that assumption.

Of course there is the shining example of one leading proponent of Brexit, Michael Gove who has admitted to taking cocaine, its not to far a stretch to think that many of similar ilk have and indeed continue to indulge.

But of course my main point was that there is a market for illegal activities, often undertaken by immigrants and many of the consumers in this market (I didn't say all) are the very people who publicly or privately purport to frown upon these activities and voted Brexit!

Hope thats made things clear!

[Andy_Faber]

On balance then immigration brought in more useful people and we may as you say suffer economically from this.

Agreed, depending what the balance is. Regretably there was very little 'balance' in the argument going into the Brexit vote.

[ramAnag]

Perhaps Billie Davis is Nicola Sturgeon in drag!!

Not GDP rA, GDP per capita, so how much someone is adding to the national 'good' by existing as opposed to not existing. And as an economic value its clearly only one facet of 'usefulness'

A machinist making a widget which is then sold is a 'producer' - easy to put a monetary value on

A nurse or teacher doing their thing for the benefit of patients or students - no DIRECT way of valuing that but clearly they are adding value through the increased wellbeing of others

Interestingly, and I've mentioned this before, UK national productivity excludes those in state run health and education, wheras in other countries they are included (at a high level of productivity, hence skewing the comparisons)

I just feel we have to get away from this ‘them v us’, ‘wealth producers v wealth drain’ mentality and even your ‘DIRECT way of valuing’.

Regardless of how I’ve earned most of my living, which is entirely irrelevant, where teachers are concerned at one level they contribute nothing to the nation’s GDP, on another they contribute an educated workforce (ideally) and enable much of the rest of the working population to go out and contribute to the nation’s GDP.

Likewise those who work in the NHS contribute a healthy workforce and (ideally again) reduce the number of ‘man hours’ lost which again has a beneficial effect upon productivity and our GDP.

The argument can be extended to other areas of employment and on the subject of usefulness v uselessness...there is, sadly, no escaping the fact that approximate 11% of the prison population is made up of ‘foreigners’, however when this is set alongside the number of ‘foreigners’ working within the NHS and, if my experience is anything to go by, in the delivery industry, then I too wholly subscribe to the idea that immigration has led to far more ‘useful’ than ‘useless’ people.

This, along with recent observations about unelected bureaucrats, should really be ringing a few alarm bells about wtf Brexit was all about shouldn’t it?

[Andy_Faber]

I just feel we have to get away from this ‘them v us’, ‘wealth producers v wealth drain’ mentality and even your ‘DIRECT way of valuing’.

Regardless of how I’ve earned most of my living, which is entirely irrelevant, where teachers are concerned at one level they contribute nothing to the nation’s GDP, on another they contribute an educated workforce (ideally) and enable much of the rest of the working population to go out and contribute to the nation’s GDP.

Likewise those who work in the NHS contribute a healthy workforce and (ideally again) reduce the number of ‘man hours’ lost which again has a beneficial effect upon productivity and our GDP.

The argument can be extended to other areas of employment and on the subject of usefulness v uselessness...there is, sadly, no escaping the fact that approximate 11% of the prison population is made up of ‘foreigners’, however when this is set alongside the number of ‘foreigners’ working within the NHS and, if my experience is anything to go by, in the delivery industry, then I too wholly subscribe to the idea that immigration has led to far more ‘useful’ than ‘useless’ people.

This, along with recent observations about unelected bureaucrats, should really be ringing a few alarm bells about wtf Brexit was all about shouldn’t it?

I was agreeing with the above rA, sorry a bit busy for a more detailed reply. To be clear, teachers and nurses add to the country's value but their efforts are less easy to evaluate. They are 'useful'