OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Andy_Faber]

I just feel we have to get away from this ‘them v us’, ‘wealth producers v wealth drain’ mentality and even your ‘DIRECT way of valuing’.

Regardless of how I’ve earned most of my living, which is entirely irrelevant, where teachers are concerned at one level they contribute nothing to the nation’s GDP, on another they contribute an educated workforce (ideally) and enable much of the rest of the working population to go out and contribute to the nation’s GDP.

Likewise those who work in the NHS contribute a healthy workforce and (ideally again) reduce the number of ‘man hours’ lost which again has a beneficial effect upon productivity and our GDP.

The argument can be extended to other areas of employment and on the subject of usefulness v uselessness...there is, sadly, no escaping the fact that approximate 11% of the prison population is made up of ‘foreigners’, however when this is set alongside the number of ‘foreigners’ working within the NHS and, if my experience is anything to go by, in the delivery industry, then I too wholly subscribe to the idea that immigration has led to far more ‘useful’ than ‘useless’ people.

This, along with recent observations about unelected bureaucrats, should really be ringing a few alarm bells about wtf Brexit was all about shouldn’t it?

I was agreeing with the above rA, sorry a bit busy for a more detailed reply. To be clear, teachers and nurses add to the country's value but their efforts are less easy to evaluate. They are 'useful'

[Geoff Parkstone]

I thin that we have to also look at the "cost" of the value added by immigrants in, to take your example, the delivery sector.

No doubt many foreigners work in this sector, in which I will also add Uber as they are now in that sector - in over 100 call outs I have been picked up by over 100 foreigners, never once a clearly obvious "white english person".

I don't care who performs the service, for so long as it is performed satisfactorily.

Why is this? Is it that the native workforce is too lazy, or unqualified. I suspect the former and not the latter. But the other factor is that migrant transient workers come a lot cheaper. They are prepared to work for less money - perhaps due to not paying tax, or perhaps due to lower expectations and lower costs of living "back home" where much of their remuneration is heading.

So employers get a better deal and hence the (largely) unskilled migrants in this sector add value - at least they add value to the employer. But what about "society at large". I now a few people who are in this gig economy whilst furloughed or redundant or just people looking for a first job / students - and can barely get a look in because they are priced out of the market. An expectation of £ 10 an hour is laughed at - offers of between £6 and £7 are more likely. Doesn't even cover the vehicle and insurance costs unless you get 50 hours a week.

So yes, the immigrant workers are useful, and cheap. But that means the native workforce is then on state benefits, so add that into the equation and, assuming (and its a big assumption) that the home work force would take up these jobs if there were no migrant workers, Im not sure its good for UK plc, even if it is for the employers.

Clearly this does not apply to all, its just an example taken from rA thread. Cheap imported unskilled labour isnt useful to UK plc despite being a boon to individual employers; imported skilled and semi skilled labour is, and the ability to select what UK plc wants is a positive.

[Andy_Faber]

I just feel we have to get away from this ‘them v us’, ‘wealth producers v wealth drain’ mentality and even your ‘DIRECT way of valuing’.

Regardless of how I’ve earned most of my living, which is entirely irrelevant, where teachers are concerned at one level they contribute nothing to the nation’s GDP, on another they contribute an educated workforce (ideally) and enable much of the rest of the working population to go out and contribute to the nation’s GDP.

Likewise those who work in the NHS contribute a healthy workforce and (ideally again) reduce the number of ‘man hours’ lost which again has a beneficial effect upon productivity and our GDP.

The argument can be extended to other areas of employment and on the subject of usefulness v uselessness...there is, sadly, no escaping the fact that approximate 11% of the prison population is made up of ‘foreigners’, however when this is set alongside the number of ‘foreigners’ working within the NHS and, if my experience is anything to go by, in the delivery industry, then I too wholly subscribe to the idea that immigration has led to far more ‘useful’ than ‘useless’ people.

This, along with recent observations about unelected bureaucrats, should really be ringing a few alarm bells about wtf Brexit was all about shouldn’t it?

The alarm bells need to be put back on the dusty shelf for another day rA, to quote the bard Swale 'that ship has sailed' (even if it was the ghost ship HMS Grayling), I believe more than ever that we've got to just bloody get on with the task ahead of thriving as an independant nation. We're being encouraged/indoctrinated into turning our backs on so much of our history these days, and our membership of EU is history. We should move on.

If you want an argument about the value/usefulness of an individual (lets say) nurse you won't get one from me but our right-wing interlopers might make the point that that nurse probably doesn't come alone but as a package and if that includes a spouse who can't or won't find employment, elderly dependants who don't speak English and infant dependants who don't speak English in the home, and the numbers don't look so good

[MadAmster]

Saw an interview, a week or so ago, with a daffodil grower. He was unhappy. A combination of Brexit and Corona had more than halved the number of seasonal migrant workers he used to have to harvest his flowers. He advertised nationally in the UK for staff. Half a dozen turned up but all were gone inside a week. Too much like hard work, basically.

The upshot of it is that more than half of hs "crop" will wither and die.

[ramAnag]

The alarm bells need to be put back on the dusty shelf for another day rA, to quote the bard Swale 'that ship has sailed' (even if it was the ghost ship HMS Grayling), I believe more than ever that we've got to just bloody get on with the task ahead of thriving as an independant nation. We're being encouraged/indoctrinated into turning our backs on so much of our history these days, and our membership of EU is history. We should move on.

If you want an argument about the value/usefulness of an individual (lets say) nurse you won't get one from me but our right-wing interlopers might make the point that that nurse probably doesn't come alone but as a package and if that includes a spouse who can't or won't find employment, elderly dependants who don't speak English and infant dependants who don't speak English in the home, and the numbers don't look so good

I’m not looking for an argument, we always have been an ‘independent nation’ and your post seems to include a disturbingly good impression of a ‘right wing interloper’.

I’m just continuing to hold the Brexiteers to account and will continue to do so. I’m sufficiently realistic not to expect immediate change, but I’d like some indication of how things are going to improve and some recognition of the contribution ‘foreigners’ have and do make to this country.

[Geoff Parkstone]

you might be in for a long wait rA

[Andy_Faber]

Saw an interview, a week or so ago, with a daffodil grower. He was unhappy. A combination of Brexit and Corona had more than halved the number of seasonal migrant workers he used to have to harvest his flowers. He advertised nationally in the UK for staff. Half a dozen turned up but all were gone inside a week. Too much like hard work, basically.

The upshot of it is that more than half of hs "crop" will wither and die.

Yes I saw that MA, and as a ****age potato picker back in the day, gotta agree its hard work.

[ramAnag]

you might be in for a long wait rA

Lol...many a true word....

[Andy_Faber]

I’m not looking for an argument, we always have been an ‘independent nation’ and your post seems to include a disturbingly good impression of a ‘right wing interloper’.

I’m just continuing to hold the Brexiteers to account and will continue to do so. I’m sufficiently realistic not to expect immediate change, but I’d like some indication of how things are going to improve and some recognition of the contribution ‘foreigners’ have and do make to this country.

I meant argument in the Radio 4 understanding of it not the pub car park at 1130 one

Don't confuse my keenness to tease out the issues which lean towards a small c conservative viewpoint with any '(far) right wing' leanings, which I dislike as much as you do. I'm just as happy to have a pop at either side of any issue. witness a couple of posts recently where Swale and I have actually (partially) agreed and my Grayling quip (clearly missed)

[MadAmster]

I meant argument in the Radio 4 understanding of it not the pub car park at 1130 one

Don't confuse my keenness to tease out the issues which lean towards a small c conservative viewpoint with any '(far) right wing' leanings, which I dislike as much as you do. I'm just as happy to have a pop at either side of any issue. witness a couple of posts recently where Swale and I have actually (partially) agreed and my Grayling quip (clearly missed)

Ferry good was that one

[swaledale]

I thin that we have to also look at the "cost" of the value added by immigrants in, to take your example, the delivery sector.

No doubt many foreigners work in this sector, in which I will also add Uber as they are now in that sector - in over 100 call outs I have been picked up by over 100 foreigners, never once a clearly obvious "white english person".

I don't care who performs the service, for so long as it is performed satisfactorily.

Why is this? Is it that the native workforce is too lazy, or unqualified. I suspect the former and not the latter. But the other factor is that migrant transient workers come a lot cheaper. They are prepared to work for less money - perhaps due to not paying tax, or perhaps due to lower expectations and lower costs of living "back home" where much of their remuneration is heading.

So employers get a better deal and hence the (largely) unskilled migrants in this sector add value - at least they add value to the employer. But what about "society at large". I now a few people who are in this gig economy whilst furloughed or redundant or just people looking for a first job / students - and can barely get a look in because they are priced out of the market. An expectation of £ 10 an hour is laughed at - offers of between £6 and £7 are more likely. Doesn't even cover the vehicle and insurance costs unless you get 50 hours a week.

So yes, the immigrant workers are useful, and cheap. But that means the native workforce is then on state benefits, so add that into the equation and, assuming (and its a big assumption) that the home work force would take up these jobs if there were no migrant workers, Im not sure its good for UK plc, even if it is for the employers.

Clearly this does not apply to all, its just an example taken from rA thread. Cheap imported unskilled labour isnt useful to UK plc despite being a boon to individual employers; imported skilled and semi skilled labour is, and the ability to select what UK plc wants is a positive.

A rather "broad brush" approach and dealing with only one area of the economy. Of course the pandemic has changed the goal posts somewhat, how remains to be seen in detail, but pre Covid, the hospitality, health, agriculture and food sectors depended upon migrant labour, cut that off and there will be big problems that will hit the economy.

I will give but one example from the last twenty years, I assisted in setting up a manufacturing plant near Barnsley with government "ex coalfields" grant. The jobs were above average wage skilled employment, equivalent or more than a miner would have earnt and in a lot better working conditions.

The guy behind it wanted to employ ex miners and that was how he got grant assistance. His experience was firstly it was very difficult to recruit sufficient local people, despite the then high levels of unemployment and when he did get them there were many instances of them not staying the course over a decade, he ended up with a workforce that was roughly 60% local and 40% immigrant. Not because he was paying below average wages, but simply because he couldn't recruit enough good quality local people.

Now one anecdotal example doesn't prove a rule, but a look at the demographic of the UK, will show an increasingly ageing population and a shrinking workforce, where exactly are employers going to be recruiting their workforce from?

A couple of years ago I was travelling in Scotland and one thing I noted was that most of the hotels were managed and staffed by EU migrants, even in the Highlands and North, why? One would ahve thought that local people would be crying out for these jobs, but no I was told it was difficult to recruit and more importantly retain locals for such work.

The fact is the Uk has a reducing pool of labour, those within the labour market have better education and more choice and are prepared to move elsewhere to get a job they want. Those left composes of people who for various reasons are not attractive to employers or simply don't want to work.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Ageing population, shrinking workforce and birthrate. Tick. Which is why the Germans, with ruthless efficiency encouraged significant Turkish immigration a long ago as 25 years or more back and cherry picked the best/youngest/fittest of refugees from the middle east in the last 5-10 years. If addressed properly, and as part of a broad philosophy, the use of migrant workforce can be very beneficial.

Sure it stresses the education and healthcare infrastructures, creates disharmony and tension etc, but at a policy level it makes sense to ensure future pensioners will have a state pension.

[Andy_Faber]

Sure it stresses the education and healthcare infrastructures

...which is a point I've tried and failed to make a few times years ago on this very thread. Not wanting to out-anecdote Swale but I have two close friends who quit NHS for that reason (pre-Covid, and to their credit they have both rejoined the fray recently)

[swaledale]

Ageing population, shrinking workforce and birthrate. Tick. Which is why the Germans, with ruthless efficiency encouraged significant Turkish immigration a long ago as 25 years or more back and cherry picked the best/youngest/fittest of refugees from the middle east in the last 5-10 years. If addressed properly, and as part of a broad philosophy, the use of migrant workforce can be very beneficial.

Sure it stresses the education and healthcare infrastructures, creates disharmony and tension etc, but at a policy level it makes sense to ensure future pensioners will have a state pension.

Well does it though? I mean normal population growth, i.e. when the citizens of the Uk produced more than 1.4 children per family also meant planning for increased capacity in health care and education etc. Governments were supposed to plan for these things - in the last decade the reverse has happened, Government has cut resources for these and other essential public services, resulting in the stresses and strains you mention and then blamed it on uncontrolled (not that it was uncontrolled but thats another story) EU immigration.

Of course if you live in a world where your rich enough to access private healthcare and education then such things don't enter ones consciousness!

Its not just the state pension, its paying for education and healthcare etc etc from the taxes these immigrant workers pay. That has a wider effect on the economy, which means private pensions and savings are also threatened.

[Andy_Faber]

Of course if you live in a world where your rich enough to access private healthcare and education then such things don't enter ones consciousness!

Wrong and a demonstration of how big and how opaque your blinkers are.

Edit: and associating being 'rich' with having access to private healthcare is just plain deluded, I had PH through the company I joined from college at around £3 per week (my contribution), I had PH before I had a colour TV. Millions of people benefit from the same benefit and if you called them rich they'd laugh at you. If you want a discussion on the other issue bring it on but you are justy plain wrong on healthcare its not even up for discussion