OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

https://www.newstatesman.com/business/2021/08/why-remainers-shouldn-t-mock-brexiteers-over-lorry-driver-shortage

[Andy_Faber]

‘Even idealistic rA’. Lol!
Yes I may be ‘idealistic’ about somethings...and what’s wrong with that?

About some things, nothing. Same here

Brexit however is not one of them. I’m a hard bitten realist where Brexit is concerned

Brexit happened. You won’t accept it. Therefore you can’t be a realist in that issue. Without criticising your stance, I applaud those millions of remain voters who’s thought on the morning of 24th June 2016 was ‘oh dear. But let’s get on with making a success of the new reality’

a web of lies

On both sides. and led by a guy who has clearly now emerged as as close to being a crook as possible while not being a crook

Noticeable that neither you nor Tricky have responded to Swale’s challenge to provide an example of a positive to come out of Brexit

I listed a number of benefits accruing to friends of mine since Brexit, I expected you to ignore them and Swale to either ignore them or launch into a rant about them, which is your respective style and which came to pass

TTR has remained silent

LOL!

the implications for the country of the lorry driver shortage.

Which the whole U.K. media is now reporting more even handedly as being due to many factors of which Brexit is one, and apparently not the main one

your defence of Brexit

Exists only in respect of it being a fact, and my commitment to bloody get on with things thereafter

Now...about those positives, AF/TTR/anyone at all...you were about to say?

Of my immediate circle of friends none have yet seen any discernible change and I can update my earlier comment that that includes travel. Maybe MA can confirm whether his travel into/out of U.K. recently although as dual national he may not be a good example. Mrs F and I certainly noticed no difference getting from U.K. to Greece, in fact the Corfu border control was quicker because the queue is now split more evenly between EU and non EU. One of my friends has found trade with Turkey and China easier, two in NHS have seen a load reduction in Eastern European patients who’s culture is to bring the whole family into hospital, I have more anecdotal evidence but won’t bore you with it. Now I don’t pretend for one sec that there aren’t problems but ‘it’s a mix’

See above

[MadAmster]

As I was travelling with one of my lads I travelled on my Dutch passport so we could use the same lanes and not have one of us possibly having to wait for the other.

That didn't help at Brum though, Used the automatic PP readers, I got the "try again" message 3 or 4 times and then the message "please ask for assistance". I was invited to try a different machine and that worked first time. Apart from that technical issue there were no issues at either end apart from having to show various extra things like Passenger Locator Form, Health declaration, proof of vaccination and a negative test result when leaving Holland yet only a negative test result when leaving the UK.

[ramAnag]

Strange bit of quoting, AF...but I’ll do my best.
Taking your final paragraph first...I accept you’ve made those points before. Not certain they’re an entirely objective defence of Brexit for the following reasons.
So anecdotally your friend is finding it easier to deal with China and Turkey...but how does that begin to compensate for the increased complications involved in dealing with our more natural EU neighbours?
As regards the NHS...at this stage it has obviously been impacted far more by Covid than Brexit. My own experience is that, vaccinations apart, our local GP’s practice is shambolic compared with the pre Brexit/Covid era but I’m NOT blaming the former for that. Equally the alleged Eastern European practice you refer to will have been restricted by Covid protocol not Brexit.ö
Concerning travel...I hope to let you know in a couple of weeks.

Returning to earlier in your post, I’m not sure who you’re referring to as ‘close to a crook’...but you and TTR repeatedly throw out the accusation that I won’t ‘accept’ it.
I don’t understand that. Of course I ‘accept’ it...I have no choice...**** happens and Brexit has happened...but accepting that something has happened doesn’t mean we cease to question it does it?
Surely that is the point...the subject of this thread, Brexit, represents a huge change for both this country and our European neighbours.
In your opinion we should now just get on with it and make the most of it. A fair and not unreasonable stance.
In Tricky’s opinion we should all celebrate our new found freedom and Brexit should not be judged until long after we’re dead and our children have retired, which is, imo, utterly ridiculous.
In my opinion, and probably that of all responsible Remainers...of course we have to get on with the situation that has been created, but we have to challenge and acknowledge the difficulties presented by Brexit and ask whether this is really what people understood they were voting for in the referendum of 2016 and the election in 2019.
It’s called holding people to account and is, imo, an essential feature of democracy.

[Andy_Faber]

Strange bit of quoting, AF.
Taking your final paragraph first...I accept you’ve made those points before. Not certain they’re an entirely objective defence of Brexit for the following reasons.
So anecdotally your friend is finding it easier to deal with China and Turkey...but how does that begin to compensate for the increased complications involved in dealing with our more natural EU neighbours?

Concerning travel...I hope to let you know in a couple of weeks.

Returning to earlier in your post, I’m not sure who you’re referring to as ‘close to a crook’...

Sorry about the reply format, rubbish internet here required it at the time

You asked for POSITIVES, that’s what I offered. If you want a more balanced view, please say. Nice at least that my repeat wasn’t ignored this time

MA has offered some insight re travel

Showing my evenhandedness, the (alleged) crook was Cameron

[ramAnag]

Sorry about the reply format, rubbish internet here required it at the time

You asked for POSITIVES, that’s what I offered. If you want a more balanced view, please say. Nice at least that my repeat wasn’t ignored this time

MA has offered some insight re travel

Showing my evenhandedness, the (alleged) crook was Cameron

You do seem to be reliant on semantics, AF.

The three examples of ‘POSITIVES’ you provided are debatable because...
1) There is little sense in pointing to your friend’s increasing ability to trade with China and Turkey if it is done at the cost of more complex trading with all the EU nations. Where’s the advantage?
2) There is no point in citing the alleged reduction of Eastern European visitors to our hospitals if it is self evident that Covid, rather than Brexit, is responsible for that change.
3) Your observations about travel are interesting but, at a time when UK travellers to the Mediterranean are down about 43% on pre pandemic levels (source Simon Calder) again your anecdote tells us little.

So...I did ask for positives and you’ve not really provided any. To me a balanced view is everything and I note that this morning the BBC is describing how availability of the flu vaccine is likely to be the latest thing to be negatively impacted by the HGV driver shortage. I recognise that Brexit isn’t solely responsible for this shortage, of course I do, but it is undeniably - despite TTR’s howls of outrage - a major factor.

Wouldn’t know if Cameron is a ‘crook’ but, imo, he’s a cowardly inadequate.

As an aside on travel...and not one necessarily related to Brexit...I’m due to travel south in a little over a week. The cost of the necessary test at the airport prior to our return is €25pp. By comparison the equivalent necessary test in the UK two days after our return is £49pp. Makes you so proud doesn’t it?

[Andy_Faber]

You do seem to be reliant on semantics, AF.

The three examples of ‘POSITIVES’ you provided are debatable because...
1) There is little sense in pointing to your friend’s increasing ability to trade with China and Turkey if it is done at the cost of more complex trading with all the EU nations. Where’s the advantage?
2) There is no point in citing the alleged reduction of Eastern European visitors to our hospitals if it is self evident that Covid, rather than Brexit, is responsible for that change.
3) Your observations about travel are interesting but, at a time when UK travellers to the Mediterranean are down about 43% on pre pandemic levels (source Simon Calder) again your anecdote tells us little.

So...I did ask for positives and you’ve not really provided any. To me a balanced view is everything and I note that this morning the BBC is describing how availability of the flu vaccine is likely to be the latest thing to be negatively impacted by the HGV driver shortage. I recognise that Brexit isn’t solely responsible for this shortage, of course I do, but it is undeniably - despite TTR’s howls of outrage - a major factor.

Wouldn’t know if Cameron is a ‘crook’ but, imo, he’s a cowardly inadequate.

As an aside on travel...and not one necessarily related to Brexit...I’m due to travel south in a little over a week. The cost of the necessary test at the airport prior to our return is €25pp. By comparison the equivalent necessary test in the UK two days after our return is £49pp. Makes you so proud doesn’t it?

I’m trying not to turn into TTR here

1 you asked for positives

2. As described, Brexit not Covid related. Like you, I’m not a liar and neither are my two friends, one of whom has been tempted back to NHS for this very reason (I will add that certain social groups are equally guilty IHO)

3. We’ll have to agree to differ. My anecdote about Corfu border control may not apply elsewhere but the impact appears negligible especially when compared to the restrictions imposed around 9/11

You won’t win on the driver shortage, even BBC have now backed off on it being the major issue

Other than that we agree!

[Andy_Faber]

And on the subject of Covid tests, in Greece lateral flow tests are £20 whereas in U.K. they are free so I guess it’s swings and roundabouts

[ramAnag]

Andy...not for one moment am I referring to either you or your two friends as ‘liars’ and I really don’t understand that comment.

I am simply saying that an increase in the ease of trade with the two nations you mention isn’t really a ‘POSITIVE’ if there is a simultaneous increase in the complexity of trade with the EU nations as a direct result of Brexit.
Similarly it is impossible to judge the impact of Brexit on the NHS because, thus far, the far greater impact of the pandemic has covered the same time frame.
I’m not trying to ‘win’ on the HGV front and I genuinely wish the problem didn’t exist, however the following three statements are all true.
1) There is a shortage of HGV drivers throughout Europe and elsewhere.
2) The shortage is described as being more acute in the UK.
3) That shortage has been exacerbated by Brexit as a result of the exodus of foreign workers. (The same applies to more seasonal occupations too.)
4) The aforementioned shortage is likely to lead to an increase in the cost of many goods, including food, and that increase is significantly (NOT entirely) attributable to Brexit.

You and TTR repeatedly insist that I won’t ‘accept’ Brexit. That’s nonsense...I have no choice. It does seem to me however that the two of you (he more so than you) simply refuse to accept the downsides and are struggling to demonstrate any benefits.

[Geoff Parkstone]

You do seem to be reliant on semantics, AF.

The three examples of ‘POSITIVES’ you provided are debatable because...
1) There is little sense in pointing to your friend’s increasing ability to trade with China and Turkey if it is done at the cost of more complex trading with all the EU nations. Where’s the advantage?
2) There is no point in citing the alleged reduction of Eastern European visitors to our hospitals if it is self evident that Covid, rather than Brexit, is responsible for that change.
3) Your observations about travel are interesting but, at a time when UK travellers to the Mediterranean are down about 43% on pre pandemic levels (source Simon Calder) again your anecdote tells us little.

So...I did ask for positives and you’ve not really provided any. To me a balanced view is everything and I note that this morning the BBC is describing how availability of the flu vaccine is likely to be the latest thing to be negatively impacted by the HGV driver shortage. I recognise that Brexit isn’t solely responsible for this shortage, of course I do, but it is undeniably - despite TTR’s howls of outrage - a major factor.

Wouldn’t know if Cameron is a ‘crook’ but, imo, he’s a cowardly inadequate.

As an aside on travel...and not one necessarily related to Brexit...I’m due to travel south in a little over a week. The cost of the necessary test at the airport prior to our return is €25pp. By comparison the equivalent necessary test in the UK two days after our return is £49pp. Makes you so proud doesn’t it?

**** me, are you still nickel and diming over the cost of travel post brexit and/or covid. I wonder how much these tests would have cost if we'd still been in the EU Actually no I dont, just deal with it, but if you are so hard up that the UK test costs more than an EU one, send me your bank detail and I will give you the difference.

To set this in context, long ago, pre Brexit, I could but a pint in Greece for £ 2 when it was £ 4 in UK. Was that due to the EU - no, its just that within or without an economic union the cost of goods and the wage levels are different. End of.

[ramAnag]

**** me, are you still nickel and diming over the cost of travel post brexit and/or covid. I wonder how much these tests would have cost if we'd still been in the EU Actually no I dont, just deal with it, but if you are so hard up that the UK test costs more than an EU one, send me your bank detail and I will give you the difference.

To set this in context, long ago, pre Brexit, I could but a pint in Greece for £ 2 when it was £ 4 in UK. Was that due to the EU - no, its just that within or without an economic union the cost of goods and the wage levels are different. End of.

**** me...you still missing the point completely?
It was a simple aside about travel from someone who is about to travel to someone who’s already there and, as explained, ‘not one necessarily related to Brexit’.
The observation was...as a member of a ‘captive audience’ in a foreign airport the charge is €25pp. At home, a DIY equivalent that has to be sent off costs more than twice that amount at £49pp.
Maybe you can explain why...otherwise wind your bloody neck in.

[MadAmster]

And on the subject of Covid tests, in Greece lateral flow tests are £20 whereas in U.K. they are free so I guess it’s swings and roundabouts

UK tests are free UNLESS it's a test for travel purposes in which case it costs an arm and a leg. We got free tests in NL to travel to the UK. In the UK we we had 55 hours between landing and taking off again. That meant a PCR test because we were in England longer than 12 hours. We also had to have one in order to fly back, taken no longer than 48 hours before the due departure time. They are both PCR tests. My logic said that, if I took a test 47 hours before the flight, we could cover both bases with a single test. That's where the Jobsworths stepped in. No Sir, the first one is a Day 2 test. The other is a fit to fly test. You have to do both. They're both the same though aren't they? Technically yes but you have to take the test with the right name........ Upshot of it was £300 in PCR test costs. Daylight robbery.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Andy...not for one moment am I referring to either you or your two friends as ‘liars’ and I really don’t understand that comment.

I am simply saying that an increase in the ease of trade with the two nations you mention isn’t really a ‘POSITIVE’ if there is a simultaneous increase in the complexity of trade with the EU nations as a direct result of Brexit.
Similarly it is impossible to judge the impact of Brexit on the NHS because, thus far, the far greater impact of the pandemic has covered the same time frame.
I’m not trying to ‘win’ on the HGV front and I genuinely wish the problem didn’t exist, however the following three statements are all true.
1) There is a shortage of HGV drivers throughout Europe and elsewhere.
2) The shortage is described as being more acute in the UK.
3) That shortage has been exacerbated by Brexit as a result of the exodus of foreign workers. (The same applies to more seasonal occupations too.)
4) The aforementioned shortage is likely to lead to an increase in the cost of many goods, including food, and that increase is significantly (NOT entirely) attributable to Brexit.

You and TTR repeatedly insist that I won’t ‘accept’ Brexit. That’s nonsense...I have no choice. It does seem to me however that the two of you (he more so than you) simply refuse to accept the downsides and are struggling to demonstrate any benefits.

1) Of course its a bloody positive. If Derby had signed Ronaldo on a free transfer and on £ 1000 a week wages, does this mean that you'd be moaning that it wasnt a positive because we could have spent that £ 1000 employing an extra cleaner? On day one post brexit there was an enormous pile of trade negatives, offset by positives (in my view) soft issues. Every trade negative that is converted into a positive is a "win" - unless you are so one eyed as to regard everything as a negative.

So now whereas we were, let us say, 75% negative, we might be 70%. Even your limited understanding of numbers must see that as a positive - in that it is the reduction of a negative? We've already suffered and factored in the initial negatives, so in theory it can only improve.

2) The HGV drivers et al debate rolls on, but I'm glad to see that you are finally backtracking from it completely being down to brexit, to a "brexit has just exacerbated the problem" stance. It may lead to increased cost of goods or services, supply chain shortages always do, but post covid, inflation is an absolute given anyway, if for no better reason than the fact that our, and all other country's governments that increased public borrowing, government will be comfortable with inflating their way out of the debt crunch.

You want to see benefits of Brexit? Lets list a few that you wont like

Enhanced sovereignty
Cancelled exposure to the United States of Europe programme
Regaining control of borders

Basically all those little englander things that you despise, but most brexit supporters hold dear. So its no great surprise that you cant see positives, because you are blind to them. So to expect anyone else to magic up some positives that you see that way is pointless. Any brexiteer positive will be set aside by you as not a positive, and any slowly emerging benefit of trade will always be belittled by what you perceive as a hug economic negative.

I remain sceptical as to how the leaving of the EU will play out, but I sure as hell dont expect any "hard" long term benefits to emerge in under 5 years. But those positives that you reject are here and now, we no longer have an unelected European overlord - we've just got our own unaccountable overlord now!

[Geoff Parkstone]

**** me...you still missing the point completely?
It was a simple aside about travel from someone who is about to travel to someone who’s already there and, as explained, ‘not one necessarily related to Brexit’.
The observation was...as a member of a ‘captive audience’ in a foreign airport the charge is €25pp. At home, a DIY equivalent that has to be sent off costs more than twice that amount at £49pp.
Maybe you can explain why...otherwise wind your bloody neck in.

Incidentally IM on the Grecian trail in a fortnight as well, although as a client is paying I am immune to the costs.

In order to explain why one test costs more than another in a different country, I refer my learned friend to my previous post in which I observed that a pint of beer costs different amounts in different countries, because the cost of living, disposable income and so on is different. So does a tin of beans, a pound of tomatoes, a packet of fags, a hooker on the street corner or a gallon of petrol. Why should a covid test being consistently globally the same?

[Trickytreesreds]

**** me, are you still nickel and diming over the cost of travel post brexit and/or covid. I wonder how much these tests would have cost if we'd still been in the EU Actually no I dont, just deal with it, but if you are so hard up that the UK test costs more than an EU one, send me your bank detail and I will give you the difference.

To set this in context, long ago, pre Brexit, I could but a pint in Greece for £ 2 when it was £ 4 in UK. Was that due to the EU - no, its just that within or without an economic union the cost of goods and the wage levels are different. End of.

Contrary to how he put it. We will see no immediate improvement for the first few years. I notice how RA twisted what I said, to say 40 years for the benefit? I said to make a true argument comparison, we would have to be out as long as we have been in.
The next five years will for me will show what is possible. COVID has tits upped the time table, I accept.
Truss, to her credit has been wheeling and dealing. We aren't stopping trading with the EU, but aren't tied to just one market either.

We are an island, and as such the shipping opportunities are there. The EU's worst nightmare? A Singapore on the doorstep perhaps?
Coming out of COVID, doesn't seem to be slowing us down at all.

https://www.starspost.com/german-economy-nightmare-as-uk-growth-outstrips-eus-biggest-powerhouse-by-three-times/

My point is, can we just stop crying about it for 5 mins. Its done/finished/over/finito
Yes there are areas to revisit and redo. But out we are.
It's time to make it work. There are problems occuring that are not unsolvable. We all knew that, but the EU has tried its best to exasberate the problems. ( even Irish peace doesn't stop them)

I'm not going to change your mind Ra, no more than you can change mine. But until we've tried lets stop turning petty inconveniences into disasters. As for holidays, I can give you an alternative. Fly to Thailand ( once COVID is sortedfor £500, stay in a 4 star hotel for £500 for 2 weeks, spend next to F- ALL in comparison to Spain/Italy/Greece. The cheapness of Euro holidays has gone, unless Albania/Kosovo is on your list.

Anyway welcome back,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxIHd4GvxiU