OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[BaaLocks]

Rule Brittania.

Or Rule Britannia even.....

I don't agree it would cause meltdown, I think the situation would have to be carefully managed though (maybe without campaigning) as I do agree on the broader point that it is just wrong to ask for a revote on the grounds that you didn't like the first response. But I also believe that we simply can't get out even if we want to. I feel that leaving the EU will be like unscrambling eggs - it just can't be done. The leglisation, procedure and technicalities written into it all will make it pretty much impossible to do without it being so unpalatable that even the harshest of Brexiters couldn't condone it. Time will tell, just my two penneth.

[Gaspode]

No, we were led out of the EU on a tissue of lies, false conclusions and unanswered question.....

You may have been - I got engaged in the process, found out as much info as I could to de-bunk the waffle from both sides and made my decision in the most informed manner I could - as did a lot of other people. A TV clip of 2 senile old dears complaining that they were mislead and thought that £350M a week would all be going to the NHS does not represent the rest of the leave voters, nor the level of intelligence of the majority of the British people - and please stop playing back the premise that all of the lies were on one side of the argument....How many voted 'remain' because they were taken in (and scared) by the threats of war and pestilence put out by the remain camp?

[AdiSalisbury]

Example: the question 'would you like to shag Angelina Jolie?' would probably get a 'yes' majority. 'Would you like to shag Angelina Jolie, realising that she expects to be flown at your expense to a private island and put up in a millionaire villa for two weeks, with costs likely to exceed £2m. Plus Brad Pitt has contacts in the mafia and will get you killed as a result?' Answer might be that you'll go upstairs and have a tug instead. OK - my example is a bit silly, nay flat out daft, but my point is that we need to make sure people truly understand what they have agreed to before we act. Interesting that I get a cooling off period if I buy a Sky Sports subscription and then read the small print but for taking a country on a path of irreversible economic direction we don't even get to sleep on it.

Would this cooling off period apply if the vote was remain? With your Sky subscription, you are joining an agreement, not cancelling. Could it really work, and how would it be viewed by our EU friends? You may have turned down Angelina, not realising that by remaining that Big Dave is waiting around the corner, with the promise of looking after you for being his "special" friend?

It seems to be missed by many, that remaining is just as unpredictable as leaving.

[ramAnag]

Come on Gaspode...no one is suggesting that you were led in such away and it seems even more unlikely that BaaLocks would have allowed himself to be, but you know as well as anyone that the level of pre-referendum debate was appalling. Yes there were lies on both sides. Cameron and Osborn should be ashamed of themselves, but the biggest and most spectacularly effective lies were told by Johnson and Farage and the visual evidence of them remains for all to see.
There is undoubtedly an intelligent case to be put for leaving the EU but that wasn't how it was last June and BaaLocks is right, a great many people were misled by a 'tissue of lies, false conclusions and unanswered questions'.
Frankly the level of debate on this forum, which has been running for almost seven weeks now, has been infinitely more honest, intelligent and informative than anything that went on nationally prior to June 23rd.

[Andy_Faber]

Frankly the level of debate on this forum, which has been running for almost seven weeks now, has been infinitely more honest, intelligent and informative than anything that went on nationally prior to June 23rd.

I've been pleasantly surprised at that. Through my work and hobby interests I've been involved in two other 'duscussions', one with a group who'd class themselves as 'affluent, informed', and another who'd class themselves as 'working class' in old money, and to be honest the level of debate has been appalling, the opinion entrenched and many of the discussion threads reduced to insults and in some cases threats of violence.

'Forzi i tifosi!', if you'll excuse me being a bit European

Edit: 'Power To The Fans' for those without my admirable skills in Nightclub Italian

[Gaspode]

.....There is undoubtedly an intelligent case to be put for leaving the EU but that wasn't how it was last June and BaaLocks is right, a great many people were misled by a 'tissue of lies, false conclusions and unanswered questions'.....

But that's exactly my point - you cannot claim that the only people being misled and not being told the truth were those who voted leave (which by definition invalidates the argument that we were tricked into leaving) - some remain voters were scared to vote leave because of lies and false conclusions and others couldn't bring themselves to vote leave because of unanswered questions and general scaremongering - and as Adi has quite rightly pointed out, there was virtually no discussion of the consequences of staying in - what plans does the EU have for security? what is the next stage of the migrant crisis? what is included in the 'secret' TTIP negotiations? why did the EU delay its budget announcements until after the referendum? what level of damage will be done to UK ports as a result of planned EU regulations? (again, carefully delayed until after the referendum).
The UK people were horribly let down by the quality of the debates and the information made available - but that affected both sides equally. It's unacceptable to claim that the only reason we left was because people voting to leave were fed lies and believed them....

[BaaLocks]

But that's exactly my point - you cannot claim that the only people being misled and not being told the truth were those who voted leave

Which is why I'm not claiming it!

I have clearly said, and others have (in higher places that football forums), that both sides failed in presenting a well structured campaign. Farage famously admitted this the day after on the £350m quote, Anna Soubry (for example) has since admitted the remain campaign completely failed to address the immigration question.

The UK people were horribly let down by the quality of the debates and the information made available - but that affected both sides equally. Your words, not mine.

And I now don't think it is acceptable to just say 'oh well, it was all a bit flaky but let's go with it anyway'. This point has no relevance what so ever on whether we should remain or stay, it is to do with the quality of information on which the decision was made and the consequences that will now kick in as a result of that.

Angry says he is happy to exit if that means he needs to get a visa to go to France. No problem, his view and I don't challenge that, what I challenge is that nobody ever suggested that would be where we would end up. The constant argument in the campaign was the EU would find it difficult to deny us free movement of people on account of us being the 5th largest economy in the world / more important than the rest / just damned fine chaps. If we are now in a place where we need visas to get off this island into Europe that is different to what many thought they were voting for. I therefore think it would be only fair to go back to the people and confirm what that 'simple Yes/No question' got us to in terms of concrete actions.

That is the 'contract' that Adi refers to and in any other business deal the initial decision would be supported by a more detailed proposal which can then, should it not be suitable, be rejected or amended. It happens when I buy a Sky box, mobile phone, even a book from Amazon - seems similarly fair that we consider it as an option for the future of our country.

[Andy_Faber]

But that's exactly my point - you cannot claim that the only people being misled and not being told the truth were those who voted leave (which by definition invalidates the argument that we were tricked into leaving) - some remain voters were scared to vote leave because of lies and false conclusions and others couldn't bring themselves to vote leave because of unanswered questions and general scaremongering - and as Adi has quite rightly pointed out, there was virtually no discussion of the consequences of staying in - what plans does the EU have for security? what is the next stage of the migrant crisis? what is included in the 'secret' TTIP negotiations? why did the EU delay its budget announcements until after the referendum? what level of damage will be done to UK ports as a result of planned EU regulations? (again, carefully delayed until after the referendum).
The UK people were horribly let down by the quality of the debates and the information made available - but that affected both sides equally. It's unacceptable to claim that the only reason we left was because people voting to leave were fed lies and believed them....

I'm a real info-hoover and I have to agree that genuine unbiased well researched information was bloody thin on the ground - the closest to it came from some parts of the BBC, notably Radio 4, IMO.

One thing that I had an insight on due to the age of my kids (late teen/early twenty so only the first/second major voting opportunity) - they, and their wide circle of friends, for the most part had a very clear idea about how they were voting (for info it was probably 80% remain but that's not the point) but when I occasionally got them into debate they had f*** all idea about why! They came over as very poorly informed in 'matters of the world' generally. To me this is as bad as old folk voting leave 'Because of that nice Mr Farage'

[ramAnag]

Gaspode, I'm not, and never have, claimed that only those who voted 'leave' were 'misled and not told the truth'.
I am saying that the biggest and most 'influential' lies were told by the 'Leave' campaigners and that Johnson's bus and Farage's poster are the two most telling examples of that.

Don't agree with Adi about 'remaining being just as unpredictable as leaving'. That old 'better the devil you know...' saying springs readily to mind and a 'leap into the unknown' is always self evidently more 'unpredictable' than maintaining the status quo.

At the end of the day the biggest issues for me are that...a largely uninformed electorate has been forced to make probably the biggest decision in our nation's recent (last half century) history based on campaigns dominated by lies and duplicity and the eventual 'majority' in favour of taking a step with such enormous consequences for our country's future is so tiny as to be nothing other than totally divisive.

With that in mind we now need a time for reflection and to think very carefully indeed before deciding on the next step.

[Andy_Faber]

I am saying that the biggest and most 'influential' lies were told by the 'Leave' campaigners and that Johnson's bus and Farage's poster are the two most telling examples of that.

Don't agree with Adi about 'remaining being just as unpredictable as leaving'. That old 'better the devil you know...' saying springs readily to mind and a 'leap into the unknown' is always self evidently more 'unpredictable' than maintaining the status quo.

I'd go with your assertion that 'Leave' told the biggest porkies. BUT, the bigger mistake was the inability of 'Remain' to prove it. If the More Or Less programme blew it apart with maths and logic in about two minutes (whilst accepting that there WAS a 'real' number, about £175m as I recall), why couldn't Remain do that? And IMO the reason was they were too blinkered to realise that they were fighting the wrong battle. I actually think the govt nearly ****ed up with the Scottish independance referendumas well, and it was only Gordon Brown's impassioned and slobber-ridden speech that saved the day.

I wasn't fearful of the unpredictability of remaining, actually just the opposite, it was the predictability, the knowledge that idealogical zealots of the EU are skippering the supertanker of federalism right through Europe and UK was on its charts just like everywhere else, and would just be known as Airstrip One before you know it. (know your George Orwell......)

[ramAnag]

Can't disagree with that Andy. Cameron and Osborne were complacent and dull witted, Corbyn disinterested and half hearted, as if saving his energy for his anti-Blair tirade which came shortly after. Only Brown spoke with any conviction and people had little faith in him as a result of his poor, short lived and badly timed performance as PM leading up to 2010.

On the other hand, the 'Gang of Four'...Farage, IDS, Gove and Johnson...proved themselves to be nothing other than a bunch of back stabbing liars.

What a wonderful choice we were all given, although I do find it interesting that certain older politicians, eg. Brown, Major, Clarke and Heseltine seem so much more competent, reasonable and 'statesmanlike' than their modern day counterparts. I used to ridicule John Major back in the nineties. He's like a breath of fresh air and common sense compared to what's around today imo.

P.S. The same cannot be said of Currie, Prescott,Portillo or Galloway.

[Andy_Faber]

What a wonderful choice we were all given, although I do find it interesting that certain older politicians, eg. Brown, Major, Clarke and Heseltine seem so much more competent, reasonable and 'statesmanlike' than their modern day counterparts. I used to ridicule John Major back in the nineties. He's like a breath of fresh air and common sense compared to what's around today imo.

John Major put forward one of the most measured arguments in favour of Remain throughout the whole campaign. Not supported by any hard data, he just sounded believable and with a calm conviction. No slanging match for John.

[BaaLocks]

Would this cooling off period apply if the vote was remain?

Yes, though I do agree with your point that the unknowns associated with leaving are far more widespread than those that will come from staying. Indeed, that in itself was the challenge of a 'Yes / No' referendum - asking people to get motivated about changing nothing is a hard thing to do. Just look at our football club - how much flak is NP getting already for not changing it in terms of personnel (not from all but definitely from many)? It is a hard concept to consider that what you have at the moment might be the best option of those available (even in the case of Richard Keogh).

[ramAnag]

John Major put forward one of the most measured arguments in favour of Remain throughout the whole campaign. Not supported by any hard data, he just sounded believable and with a calm conviction. No slanging match for John.

Actually I do remember him having a little 'dig' at the Machiavellian nature of Duncan Smith on Andrew Marr, but even that was quite measured and, again imo, totally justified.

[Trickytreesreds]

Can't disagree with that Andy. Cameron and Osborne were complacent and dull witted, Corbyn disinterested and half hearted, as if saving his energy for his anti-Blair tirade which came shortly after. Only Brown spoke with any conviction and people had little faith in him as a result of his poor, short lived and badly timed performance as PM leading up to 2010.

On the other hand, the 'Gang of Four'...Farage, IDS, Gove and Johnson...proved themselves to be nothing other than a bunch of back stabbing liars.

What a wonderful choice we were all given, although I do find it interesting that certain older politicians, eg. Brown, Major, Clarke and Heseltine seem so much more competent, reasonable and 'statesmanlike' than their modern day counterparts. I used to ridicule John Major back in the nineties. He's like a breath of fresh air and common sense compared to what's around today imo.

P.S. The same cannot be said of Currie, Prescott,Portillo or Galloway.

Interesting how the statesmen you picked out ramanag, are all ex has beens, who wanted to "remain" .
EU pension or back seat job perhaps?