OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

No one ask for?

Yeah okay...take your point...Farage, IDS and a few other right wing Tories asked for. Hardly a national clamour.

[Andy_Faber]

The debate gets 'hijacked' by people who want to make a protest vote against immigration

I think that's a massive generalisation - lots of thoughtful non racist folk (like me, although I actually voted remain) had/have genuine concerns about immigration, and most concerns are waaaay more nuanced than the old 'no darkies' mantra from the (real) bad old days.

[swaledale]

certainly sounds like your a sore loser swale my opinion

On the contrary on a personal basis being in or out of the Eu will not impact on me greatly, I may even benefit financially I,m just incredulous as to the reasons being given for Leaving, the shambles thats arisen since the Brexit vote, the rapid distancing from claims made - the £350 million (Farage) reducing immigration (Johnson and others) - lack of any coherent plans by those promoting Brexit and the rapid exit stage right by Johnson and Farage - isn't it easy to be enthusiastic about changing things UNTIL you have to then do something about it?

Strikes me that most who voted for leave on here take the view that in some miraculous way everything will sort it self out. of course life will go on - the question is will those who voted leave actually benefit?

[roger_ramjet]

I suspect the majority of the Leave leaders didnt actually expect to win and so had no plans going forward beyond the "we fought a good fight" speech. Now, put on the spot, Johnson bails out, Farage was never in a position to influence post decision and Gove doesnt look electable. Hence the current political vacuum - theory is easy in isolation; praxis not so when an unexpected event occurs

[ramAnag]

I think that's a massive generalisation - lots of thoughtful non racist folk (like me, although I actually voted remain) had/have genuine concerns about immigration, and most concerns are waaaay more nuanced than the old 'no darkies' mantra from the (real) bad old days.

Think you misunderstand me Andy. I'm not, and never have, suggested that having concerns about immigration means someone is necessarily racist. Concerns about immigration may be genuine and the fact is that subsequent demands on 'poorer' areas of the country, where services are often overloaded has been treated with complacency by the liberal middle class left for too long imo.
I do not doubt that this is a problem which needs addressing, albeit sensibly and compassionately, however it should not, again imo, have taken over the whole EU debate.
Immigration is just one issue but SOME 'Leave' campaigners, who probably do have racist intentions, successfully turned it into the single most important central issue whereas membership of the EU and our role within Europe was about a whole raft of other issues as well.
SOME of those, including Farage, sought to play on people's paranoia about immigration - even to the extent of his ridiculously offensive and irrelevant poster of refugees - and compounded that with the big red bus lie which cunningly appeared on everyone's TV's every night. Both of those things were, to me, unacceptable and unforgivable.

[Andy_Faber]

Think you misunderstand me Andy. I'm not, and never have, suggested that having concerns about immigration means someone is necessarily racist. Concerns about immigration may be genuine and the fact is that subsequent demands on 'poorer' areas of the country, where services are often overloaded has been treated with complacency by the liberal middle class left for too long imo.
I do not doubt that this is a problem which needs addressing, albeit sensibly and compassionately, however it should not, again imo, have taken over the whole EU debate.
Immigration is just one issue but SOME 'Leave' campaigners, who probably do have racist intentions, successfully turned it into the single most important central issue whereas membership of the EU and our role within Europe was about a whole raft of other issues as well.
SOME of those, including Farage, sought to play on people's paranoia about immigration - even to the extent of his ridiculously offensive and irrelevant poster of refugees - and compounded that with the big red bus lie which cunningly appeared on everyone's TV's every night. Both of those things were, to me, unacceptable and unforgivable.

Agree with that, and it highlights a gaff by the remain wallahs. The Brexiters pushed the £350m a week thing hard, but the remainers only rebutted that in a Punch and Judy 'oh no we don't/oh yes we do' way, they should have got their ducks in a row and explained that there was/is a number, but that it is a lot lower than £350m, I think it was £180m. The problem then would have been to justify even the £180m to folk who don't in general understand 'big numbers' and want the number to be zero anyway

[swaledale]

so lets put this in perspective you give the electorate the vote by your own choice you lose poll then cry foul and want a rerun . so anther vote is done and you win by a small margin then the exit side say we want a rerun. ? it sounds like that swale if i am not mistaken so your answer is tell the 17 million they are all stupid and we dont like it and were going to ignore your views anyway . i will come back to you on this when strikes and riots take place swale. like it or leave it were out.

Riots???? Who is going to do that then? Those millions who ahve sat on their arses and let the establishment or as i call them vested Interests piss in their faces, blame them for the economic crash and continue to live the high life?

The facts such as they are - the Referendun's legal status is advisory, in other words there is no legal requirement for a government to go along with it - so 17 million would be pissed off, what about the other millions who are equally pissed off that the economic well being the country is possibly being threatened?

Do you really think the views of the 17 million are going to count IF all the indications show that leaving the EU or at least remaining in the single market, which is basically EU lite aint going to happen? Too many people with too much power and a vested interest will ensure that anything that happens suits them and not those who voted leave.

[AngryRam]

Yeah okay...take your point...Farage, IDS and a few other right wing Tories asked for. Hardly a national clamour.

I feel you might have missed something in the past few years...

[AngryRam]

I see Research projects with Uk universities are being axed by the Eu as the long term future is uncertain. So another blow to both Uk as premier research country, but also to the income earned both through the University sector and industry, opportunities that will now migrate to an Eu country - the ramifications of Brexit have yet to be fully realised, whilst those fabled opportunities seem to be sparse!

Was always going to happen. The EU still hold all the cards, we are still in at the moment. Article 50 has not been invoked yet so legally our hands are tied.. The removal of funds only goes t back up our argument... The EU can do what they want and we can do bog all about it.. We are still members, so let's see how the fabled ' let's fight from within' works.
You lot are still in panic mode..

[AngryRam]

Riots???? Who is going to do that then? Those millions who ahve sat on their arses and let the establishment or as i call them vested Interests piss in their faces, blame them for the economic crash and continue to live the high life?

The facts such as they are - the Referendun's legal status is advisory, in other words there is no legal requirement for a government to go along with it - so 17 million would be pissed off, what about the other millions who are equally pissed off that the economic well being the country is possibly being threatened?

Do you really think the views of the 17 million are going to count IF all the indications show that leaving the EU or at least remaining in the single market, which is basically EU lite aint going to happen? Too many people with too much power and a vested interest will ensure that anything that happens suits them and not those who voted leave.

I doubt any of the political elite will have the balls to ignore the referendum. Massive call that would be..
Political suicide.. The next few months are going to be interesting.

[Trickytreesreds]

I doubt any of the political elite will have the balls to ignore the referendum. Massive call that would be..
Political suicide.. The next few months are going to be interesting.

Folks still cling to the same rhetoric.
Economy, the poor refugees, my schooling etc.

I know that no matter what I say, is going to make a difference to any of these people.
Yet I will say-
1. EU economics is in decline and has for a long time. For me, we may as well look elsewhere whilst we can. It may sting at the start, but our EU trade is in deficit and growing and the EU's is getting worse by the day.
2. Immigration is still in free fall into the EU. We have all tossed away billions to Turkey and for what? It's up by 60% in the last 6 months. The more it floods the EU the more will up sticks to here. They have no answer to it.
3. The ones deluded enough to believe they won't be able to do anything in Europe, have obviously never been past Paris or Lindos.


Still I'll say it- all the above is a side show to the core issue.
The United States of Europe.
It's the plan/goal/mission. Stay in and this is what you want. No escape clause, no deals, no avoidance.
For me the price is too high.
Bring back the common market. That's what we signed up for, none of this political ****.

[Akwesasne]

I doubt any of the political elite will have the balls to ignore the referendum. Massive call that would be..
Political suicide.. The next few months are going to be interesting.

The way the things are going and are likely to go I don't think there will be much trouble. The Brexiteers will be extremely grateful that there is someone on hand to rectify their big mistake.

[ramAnag]

I feel you might have missed something in the past few years...

Not sure what I've 'missed' Angry. Accept that there have been many concerns voiced about immigration but don't think it can be denied that the major motivation behind the Referendum was Cameron's desire to steal Farage's thunder and appease the Tory rebels during the build up to the 2015 election. Always a terrible and unecessary decision imo.

Strange though, that while those who support 'Remain' stand repeatedly accused of being 'whingers' and 'sore losers' all we are doing is arguing and debating, while the 'significant minority' who voted 'Leave' appear to be threatening 'riots' if their wishes are not heeded.

[Andy_Faber]

Does anyone have an opinion on whether UK would be better trying to renegotiate an EU-wide trade deal, or do many smaller deals? The gung-ho side of me says divide and conquer with individual deals, but I'm sitting here just looking at a single supply agreement on my desk and that bugger is complicated enough, I just don't see we have the resources to do something 50,000 times as complicated

[Manofpride]