OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[MadAmster]

Typical politician crap, isn't it? Totally incapable of joined up thinking. Johnson, Truss, Trump, Wilders, Meloni, Starmer. It's nothing new either. From their inception in 1911, the OAP part of NICs went into funds managed by approved societies and Unions. In 1948, MPs voted to have them paid directly into the Treasury so that the workers of the day paid the pensions of the day. Over the decades, the former ratio of workersensioners has shifted from workers being the larger group to pensioners being the larger group. that shift has seen successive governments see the oncoming problem and doing nowt about it as that would have entailed upping tax/NIC quite a lot and that would see the darlings lose their seats at the next election.

[Andy_Faber]

successive governments see the oncoming problem and doing nowt about it as that would have entailed upping tax/NIC quite a lot and that would see the darlings lose their seats at the next election.

And therein lies the weakness of short term mandate democracy over dictatorship, whoever's in power focusses on what keeps them in power first, what benefits the electorate second. Maybe dictatorship and the associated ability to be unpopular over a long period isn't such a bad idea after all

[ramAnag]

And therein lies the weakness of short term mandate democracy over dictatorship, whoever's in power focusses on what keeps them in power first, what benefits the electorate second. Maybe dictatorship and the associated ability to be unpopular over a long period isn't such a bad idea after all

Enlightened despotism. Much to be said for it, but - Catch 22 - how can you guarantee the enlightened bit?

[MadAmster]

And therein lies the weakness of short term mandate democracy over dictatorship, whoever's in power focusses on what keeps them in power first, what benefits the electorate second. Maybe dictatorship and the associated ability to be unpopular over a long period isn't such a bad idea after all

I'd argue with that. Dictators throw their opponents in jail and/or ensure they die. Thinking the wrong things, saying them out loud... all put you in big trouble. In a dictatorship it's nigh on impossible to get policy changes, unless you're the despotic dictator in the first place. Democracy isn't perfect, not by a long chalk, but it's preferable to the alternative. Who'd want to live under the rule of a Trump, a Putin, a Xi, a Kim Jong Un or the straitjacket of an Islamic Jihad leadership? Not me for one. Having said that, if I did end up under the leadership of one of them, I probably wouldn't last very long.

[Andy_Faber]

I'd argue with that. Dictators throw their opponents in jail and/or ensure they die. Thinking the wrong things, saying them out loud... all put you in big trouble. In a dictatorship it's nigh on impossible to get policy changes, unless you're the despotic dictator in the first place. Democracy isn't perfect, not by a long chalk, but it's preferable to the alternative. Who'd want to live under the rule of a Trump, a Putin, a Xi, a Kim Jong Un or the straitjacket of an Islamic Jihad leadership? Not me for one. Having said that, if I did end up under the leadership of one of them, I probably wouldn't last very long.

You?ve got a bit mixed up MA, Trump isn?t head of a dictatorship, he?s the (unpopular with some) head of a democracy who can be voted out

I have no Russian or NK friends but my Chinese boss of a few years ago, who was a long term resident in UK and China, confirmed that there?s a lot of comfort in the (then) deal between ?the party? and ?the people? - ?make no waves and over time we?ll make you prosperous?. And he stated that it seemed to have worked for a majority (his cautious estimate) of Chinese residents, beyond The West, his concern being that prosperity was a three-decade scam based on infrastructure work to keep Chinese in employment, and eventually they?d run out of things to build?

[MadAmster]

You?ve got a bit mixed up MA, Trump isn?t head of a dictatorship, he?s the (unpopular with some) head of a democracy who can be voted out

IMO, it's Trump who's mixed up. You're right, he isn't a dictator, yet. However, he does seem to be acting very much as though he is. Deporting people for no reason. refusing to let them back despite a Supreme Court ruling ordering him to. Other actions have instigated court proceedings, which he is projected to lose provided the judges follow the Law and not Trump's whim. He will then ignore the rulings.

Sounds pretty dictatorial to me. Plus he's said to be moving towards changing things so he can go for a 3rd term. Something that goes against the Constitution.

He said to Christians in the run up to the election "vote for me now and you won't have to in 4 years". Many take that to imply that there won't be elections in 2028.

He's changed Laws so that millions no longer have a vote.

Pardon me for looking at all that's happened and what's being projected and seeing dictatorship.

[Andy_Faber]

IMO, it's Trump who's mixed up. You're right, he isn't a dictator, yet. However, he does seem to be acting very much as though he is. Deporting people for no reason. refusing to let them back despite a Supreme Court ruling ordering him to. Other actions have instigated court proceedings, which he is projected to lose provided the judges follow the Law and not Trump's whim. He will then ignore the rulings.

Sounds pretty dictatorial to me. Plus he's said to be moving towards changing things so he can go for a 3rd term. Something that goes against the Constitution.

He said to Christians in the run up to the election "vote for me now and you won't have to in 4 years". Many take that to imply that there won't be elections in 2028.

He's changed Laws so that millions no longer have a vote.

Pardon me for looking at all that's happened and what's being projected and seeing dictatorship.

Apologies, I just re read my post and it reads a bit sarcastic. not intended as such.

He's a bully, and we've had that discussion already. Very annoying when he's bullying the wrong way (IMO Ukraine for instance), leaves a bad taste in the mouth even when bullying the right way (IMO DEI, DOGE, returning (the correct) illegals). BUT there's still tremendous pushback to his antics, you wouldn't get that in China, NK, Iran for instance. He's dictating but IMO not a dictator. Maybe thats a nuance

[SithHappens]

Might not be a dictator but definitely a dick.

[ramAnag]

Might not be a dictator but definitely a dick.

Lol! How true. Although it seems AF has a point as I note AVAAZ has recently suggested, ‘Instead of portraying those drawn to fascism as monsters we should ask why they are attracted to it - what wounds lie beneath? A movement that seeks to understand this will be more effective’.

Not sure there’s time, but interesting.

[Andy_Faber]

what wounds lie beneath? .

Its a waaay too poetic way of expressing it but yes that would be a start.

And your fear about time may be right, IMO the patience of the plebicite is wearing thin (although thankfully for your allegiance, not all (I hate the phrase) 'to the right'. Brexit, the 2019 election, the 2024 election, indications that unhappy plebs will express their dissatisfaction in the most severe ways

[Trickytreesreds]

Starmers attempts to sidle up to Eu have massive back lash consequences. He is unilaterally circumnavigating the vote. When(and they will) reform and the TOries come to an agreement, its over

[ramAnag]

Its a waaay too poetic way of expressing it but yes that would be a start.

And your fear about time may be right, IMO the patience of the plebicite is wearing thin (although thankfully for your allegiance, not all (I hate the phrase) 'to the right'. Brexit, the 2019 election, the 2024 election, indications that unhappy plebs will express their dissatisfaction in the most severe ways

Agree about the choice of words but it’s the sentiment that matters.

Tbf it’s something you’ve advocated for a while, although personally I find confronting racism and downright prejudice with politeness quite difficult. Of course we need to remember that those on the far right are generally amongst the least tolerant and most aggressive, so it works both ways.

[Andy_Faber]

Agree about the choice of words but it’s the sentiment that matters.

Tbf it’s something you’ve advocated for a while, although personally I find confronting racism and downright prejudice with politeness quite difficult. Of course we need to remember that those on the far right are generally amongst the least tolerant and most aggressive, so it works both ways.

I'll forgive you the condescending nature of 'we need to remember', but whilst I'd agree based on very flimsy evidence that 'the right' might be more violent, I'd disagree with the tolerance bit, from what I can see 'the left' are currently far less tolerant, and I think that stems from the gradual reversal of / pushback against, things having gone 'their way' for half a century. I prefer 'liberal' to 'left' in this context

[Geoff Parkstone]

rA "those on the far right are generally amongst the least tolerant and most aggressive... "

I think that those on either political extreme tend towards intolerance and aggression, not just those on the right - although "those on the right" fit the current narrative more as of today. But let history remind us of the behaviour during the miners strikes and other "pre Thatcher conquest" political protests. The boot tends to be on the foot that the particular viewer wants to see it on

[ramAnag]

I'll forgive you the condescending nature of 'we need to remember', but whilst I'd agree based on very flimsy evidence that 'the right' might be more violent, I'd disagree with the tolerance bit, from what I can see 'the left' are currently far less tolerant, and I think that stems from the gradual reversal of / pushback against, things having gone 'their way' for half a century. I prefer 'liberal' to 'left' in this context

Is ‘we need to remember’ at all condescending? I don’t think so…just an observation about there being two sides to everything and if you think the ‘left’ are currently less tolerant then you clearly haven’t been following current affairs very closely over recent years.

GP…as I remember it both sides of the example you quote - i.e. the miners and the police - were violent however, without going back forty odd years, I don’t recall anyone on the left trying to set fire to hotels full of migrants and I don’t recall Democrats in the U.S. storming Congress when Biden lost.