OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

Anyway I note your not crowing about how post Brexit the economy seems to be OK wonder why that is?

I'll ignore what a patronising wad you are Swale.

But even your scoffing holds no water.

We have a long way to go, to beat the previous lows in this country, whilst UNDER the EU banner.
Recessions will come and go, no matter whose flag is flying. Of course you know this, yet choose to yell down anyone who points this out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10613201

The difference this time, is that we can and will, have the opportunity to work for ourselves now. You sound like the squealing baby, who is told, mummy's "titties" are not for meal time anymore.

Is the Eurozone a runaway success?
No it isn't. Our trade deficit with them is widening, whilst the Eurozone is in decline with its dealing with the world.]
This still won't dissuade you from your stance,. Nor do I expect you to do so.
All I can see, is massive youth unemployment in the zone. Countries teetering now, along with Greece.
Coupled with low wages, this means mass movement between countries in an effort to find work.
That causes problems for the countries feeling the flood and problems for those whose countries suffer the drain of resources.
All because of a project, that wants a unified continent- no borders run by Brussels. ]
Not for me, thank you very much.

[swaledale]

I'll ignore what a patronising wad you are Swale.

But even your scoffing holds no water.

We have a long way to go, to beat the previous lows in this country, whilst UNDER the EU banner.
Recessions will come and go, no matter whose flag is flying. Of course you know this, yet choose to yell down anyone who points this out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10613201

The difference this time, is that we can and will, have the opportunity to work for ourselves now. You sound like the squealing baby, who is told, mummy's "titties" are not for meal time anymore.

Is the Eurozone a runaway success?
No it isn't. Our trade deficit with them is widening, whilst the Eurozone is in decline with its dealing with the world.]
This still won't dissuade you from your stance,. Nor do I expect you to do so.
All I can see, is massive youth unemployment in the zone. Countries teetering now, along with Greece.
Coupled with low wages, this means mass movement between countries in an effort to find work.
That causes problems for the countries feeling the flood and problems for those whose countries suffer the drain of resources.
All because of a project, that wants a unified continent- no borders run by Brussels. ]
Not for me, thank you very much.

What stance? You clearly dont understand my stance because you repeatedly fail to say what it is, it certainly isn't "everything is rosy in the EU or squealing because we have left!"

You on the other hand have rambled incoherently from conspiracy theories, a grand plan to rule us from Brussels, out right xenophobia to Syrian ayslum seekers committing crimes, immigrants stealing UK citizens jobs to a blase assumption that leaving the EU will have no negative economic effect on the Uk whatsoever and that even if it does it will be pain worth bearing to be a "free" country again!!

Simply unbelievable and frankly not worth debating with.

[Trickytreesreds]

What stance? You clearly dont understand my stance because you repeatedly fail to say what it is, it certainly isn't "everything is rosy in the EU or squealing because we have left!"

You on the other hand have rambled incoherently from conspiracy theories, a grand plan to rule us from Brussels, out right xenophobia to Syrian ayslum seekers committing crimes, immigrants stealing UK citizens jobs to a blase assumption that leaving the EU will have no negative economic effect on the Uk whatsoever and that even if it does it will be pain worth bearing to be a "free" country again!!

Simply unbelievable and frankly not worth debating with.

You haven't debated with anyone Swale, you've thrown the teddies out over this and took the side of everyone's wrong I'm right and we're screwed.

[Trickytreesreds]

Read this morning, I thought it was very amusing and sums up the chat in here brilliantly.
Yes, as I reported a month ago, our two resident Remainer sons have been looking at their parents reproachfully since we voted for the winning side in the referendum (the other two, far more typically of their generation, didn’t vote).
But when we’ve talked it over, the boys’ tone has been more sorrowful than angry, as if they are simply mystified that anyone but an eccentric could possibly wish to leave the lovely EU.
More belligerent by far last weekend were the Remainers among my four beloved, feisty sisters-in-law — only one of whom, I think, voted to Leave (though I abandoned my survey before I had questioned them all, not wishing to be responsible for a bloodbath at my mother-in-law’s party).
One, in particular (no names, no pack-drill) positively fizzed with fury when I told her that not only had I voted for Brexit but I was very happy about it and hadn’t regretted it for a moment.
‘How could you say that?’ she hissed, fixing me with her celebrated death-stare. ‘I’m going to get very, very angry now. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.’

With that, she turned on her heel and stalked off to the other end of the garden to seek the more congenial and intelligent company of one of the birthday girl’s legions of infant great-grandchildren.
If only she had stayed to continue our little chat, I would have gone on to explain the many reasons — economic, constitutional, moral and political — why I believe the EU is indeed broke, and why I and most who voted judged that the only fix for Britain would be to pull out.
But, as I say, I didn’t want to be the son-in-law who wrecked the birthday celebrations by inflaming sister against sister, sons and daughters and grandchildren against parents, uncles, and aunts.
So I didn’t pursue the subject, confining myself to asking a niece (another Remainer) why her mum felt so passionately against Brexiteers.

Tom Utley sees nothing irrational in being concerned about the impact of uncontrollable numbers of migrants on our public services, politics, security and way of life. Pictured, Nigel Farage in front of the controversial 'breaking point' poster
‘Well, you’d be furious, too,’ she said, ‘if the vote had gone the other way.’
But here’s the thing: I would not have been angry at all. I would have been disappointed, for sure, if voters had chosen to remain shackled to the Brussels bureaucracy.
I would have considered that they had made a big mistake by throwing up this rare and wonderful opportunity to reclaim our national independence and restore meaning to British democracy.
But then I have often thought in the past that the public has made the wrong choices, not least, by voting three times to elect Tony Blair. Yet I never woke up on the morning after a Blair victory spewing venom against Labour voters, condemning them as thickos or impugning their motives in the way that so many Remainers have attacked us Leavers.
Indeed, I’ve been taken aback by the uncomprehending bitterness and anger of so many in the pro-EU camp, who have dismissed the Brexit majority as senile, backward-looking, uneducated, socially excluded, knuckle-dragging racists, contemptibly duped by the lies of the Leave campaign (as if the peddlers of Remain’s Project Fear told no whoppers).
Six weeks on, I’m also becoming weary of hearing from Remainers that the margin of Leave’s victory was so small that it doesn’t really count as a proper mandate. So let’s tackle that claim first.
True, the referendum was a close-run thing, with 51.9 per cent voting Leave against 48.1 per cent for Remain. But look at the distribution of the vote around the country, constituency by Parliamentary constituency, and a remarkable picture emerges.
If Leave had been a political party standing at a General Election, according to a study at the University of East Anglia, it would have won a thumping landslide of 421 seats — 65 per cent of all seats (including Scotland) and 73 per cent in England and Wales.

I have often thought in the past that the public has made the wrong choices, not least, by voting three times to elect Tony Blair
In the words of Gary Bennett, chief executive of number-crunchers The Stats People: ‘If higher turnout in London and Scotland had tipped Remain over 50 per cent nationally, the result would have lacked a mandate in three-quarters of seats in England and Wales, leading to a historic democratic disaster.’
Or take the Remainers’ claim that they are far better educated than those who voted Leave.
This appears to be based on a poll by Lord Ashcroft, which was reported under headlines proclaiming that those with no formal education were twice as likely to vote Leave as those with university degrees.
That’s true enough as far as it goes, says Mr Bennett, but when you consider that only one per cent of Leave voters had no formal education, it is highly misleading about the other 99 per cent.
As for the Remain majority among university graduates, that hardly tells us much either. It certainly does not mean that Remainers are more intelligent than Leavers. After all, when I was at university in the Seventies, only about eight per cent of the population went into higher education. Today, the figure is almost 50 per cent.
So, given that the young were more likely to vote Remain than the older (and wiser!) among us, it’s hardly surprising that the losing side included more graduates.
Why, anyway, should a degree in sports science from a former polytechnic — or a doctorate from Oxbridge, for that matter — make us any better or worse qualified to vote on such visceral matters as our sovereignty and national identity?
On a question like this, the vote of a dustman is surely every bit as valid as that of a professor of economics.
But it’s the accusation that we Brexiteers are racists and xenophobes that annoys me most. For one thing, we’ve just voted to leave a club that insists European beggars, who are mostly white, must be given precedence for migration over Indian nuclear physicists, who are mostly brown. Race wasn’t a question on the ballot paper.
As for the charge of xenophobia, ‘an irrational fear or dislike of foreigners’ akin to a mental disorder, I also reject that absolutely.
I am not denying that many Leavers were swayed by concerns over mass immigration (though some of us had been wanting to pull out long before the influx of millions from Eastern Europe made migration an EU issue).
But I see nothing irrational in being concerned about the impact of uncontrollable numbers of migrants, brought up in different traditions from ours, on our public services, politics, security and way of life.
So please, Remainers, drop the bitterness and hysterical recriminations. Feel free to disagree with us, by all means. But stop impugning our motives and intelligence. Like you, we voted according to our judgment of what would be best for our country’s future.
I am convinced that we were right. But let’s see.

[Akwesasne]

Read this morning, I thought it was very amusing and sums up the chat in here brilliantly.
Yes, as I reported a month ago, our two resident Remainer sons have been looking at their parents reproachfully since we voted for the winning side in the referendum (the other two, far more typically of their generation, didn’t vote).
But when we’ve talked it over, the boys’ tone has been more sorrowful than angry, as if they are simply mystified that anyone but an eccentric could possibly wish to leave the lovely EU.
More belligerent by far last weekend were the Remainers among my four beloved, feisty sisters-in-law — only one of whom, I think, voted to Leave (though I abandoned my survey before I had questioned them all, not wishing to be responsible for a bloodbath at my mother-in-law’s party).
One, in particular (no names, no pack-drill) positively fizzed with fury when I told her that not only had I voted for Brexit but I was very happy about it and hadn’t regretted it for a moment.
‘How could you say that?’ she hissed, fixing me with her celebrated death-stare. ‘I’m going to get very, very angry now. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.’

With that, she turned on her heel and stalked off to the other end of the garden to seek the more congenial and intelligent company of one of the birthday girl’s legions of infant great-grandchildren.
If only she had stayed to continue our little chat, I would have gone on to explain the many reasons — economic, constitutional, moral and political — why I believe the EU is indeed broke, and why I and most who voted judged that the only fix for Britain would be to pull out.
But, as I say, I didn’t want to be the son-in-law who wrecked the birthday celebrations by inflaming sister against sister, sons and daughters and grandchildren against parents, uncles, and aunts.
So I didn’t pursue the subject, confining myself to asking a niece (another Remainer) why her mum felt so passionately against Brexiteers.

Tom Utley sees nothing irrational in being concerned about the impact of uncontrollable numbers of migrants on our public services, politics, security and way of life. Pictured, Nigel Farage in front of the controversial 'breaking point' poster
‘Well, you’d be furious, too,’ she said, ‘if the vote had gone the other way.’
But here’s the thing: I would not have been angry at all. I would have been disappointed, for sure, if voters had chosen to remain shackled to the Brussels bureaucracy.
I would have considered that they had made a big mistake by throwing up this rare and wonderful opportunity to reclaim our national independence and restore meaning to British democracy.
But then I have often thought in the past that the public has made the wrong choices, not least, by voting three times to elect Tony Blair. Yet I never woke up on the morning after a Blair victory spewing venom against Labour voters, condemning them as thickos or impugning their motives in the way that so many Remainers have attacked us Leavers.
Indeed, I’ve been taken aback by the uncomprehending bitterness and anger of so many in the pro-EU camp, who have dismissed the Brexit majority as senile, backward-looking, uneducated, socially excluded, knuckle-dragging racists, contemptibly duped by the lies of the Leave campaign (as if the peddlers of Remain’s Project Fear told no whoppers).
Six weeks on, I’m also becoming weary of hearing from Remainers that the margin of Leave’s victory was so small that it doesn’t really count as a proper mandate. So let’s tackle that claim first.
True, the referendum was a close-run thing, with 51.9 per cent voting Leave against 48.1 per cent for Remain. But look at the distribution of the vote around the country, constituency by Parliamentary constituency, and a remarkable picture emerges.
If Leave had been a political party standing at a General Election, according to a study at the University of East Anglia, it would have won a thumping landslide of 421 seats — 65 per cent of all seats (including Scotland) and 73 per cent in England and Wales.

I have often thought in the past that the public has made the wrong choices, not least, by voting three times to elect Tony Blair
In the words of Gary Bennett, chief executive of number-crunchers The Stats People: ‘If higher turnout in London and Scotland had tipped Remain over 50 per cent nationally, the result would have lacked a mandate in three-quarters of seats in England and Wales, leading to a historic democratic disaster.’
Or take the Remainers’ claim that they are far better educated than those who voted Leave.
This appears to be based on a poll by Lord Ashcroft, which was reported under headlines proclaiming that those with no formal education were twice as likely to vote Leave as those with university degrees.
That’s true enough as far as it goes, says Mr Bennett, but when you consider that only one per cent of Leave voters had no formal education, it is highly misleading about the other 99 per cent.
As for the Remain majority among university graduates, that hardly tells us much either. It certainly does not mean that Remainers are more intelligent than Leavers. After all, when I was at university in the Seventies, only about eight per cent of the population went into higher education. Today, the figure is almost 50 per cent.
So, given that the young were more likely to vote Remain than the older (and wiser!) among us, it’s hardly surprising that the losing side included more graduates.
Why, anyway, should a degree in sports science from a former polytechnic — or a doctorate from Oxbridge, for that matter — make us any better or worse qualified to vote on such visceral matters as our sovereignty and national identity?
On a question like this, the vote of a dustman is surely every bit as valid as that of a professor of economics.
But it’s the accusation that we Brexiteers are racists and xenophobes that annoys me most. For one thing, we’ve just voted to leave a club that insists European beggars, who are mostly white, must be given precedence for migration over Indian nuclear physicists, who are mostly brown. Race wasn’t a question on the ballot paper.
As for the charge of xenophobia, ‘an irrational fear or dislike of foreigners’ akin to a mental disorder, I also reject that absolutely.
I am not denying that many Leavers were swayed by concerns over mass immigration (though some of us had been wanting to pull out long before the influx of millions from Eastern Europe made migration an EU issue).
But I see nothing irrational in being concerned about the impact of uncontrollable numbers of migrants, brought up in different traditions from ours, on our public services, politics, security and way of life.
So please, Remainers, drop the bitterness and hysterical recriminations. Feel free to disagree with us, by all means. But stop impugning our motives and intelligence. Like you, we voted according to our judgment of what would be best for our country’s future.
I am convinced that we were right. But let’s see.

If that is not a cure for insomnia, nothing is. Whether we stop in or come out, exponential economic growth is not sustainable in a finite world. Along with climate change that is the real problem which must be sorted.

[ramAnag]

'I'm just teasing out some of the reasons that cause people like Tricky, and millions of slightly less radical equivalents, to exist.'

I think Andy that we have to accept that some people's experiences and upbringing have led them to be somewhere between socially conservative and prejudiced, racist and xenophobic. The problem for slightly left of centre folk like myself is that we have to separate out what is nothing other than prejudiced bigotry from what actually has some foundation.

To discriminate against others on the basis of skin colour, ethnicity, religion or place of origin will always be totally unacceptable as far as I am concerned. However to fail to recognise that the liberal left has created some of the problem by, for instance, its insistence on an inflexible adherence to the creed of political correctness and that the poor handling - by successive governments - of immigration has been at fault for fostering resentment, would be foolish.

I have been brought up to be and went through my student daze somewhere to the left of centre on the political spectrum. Equally I have spent virtually all my adult (post student) life living in the 'green and pleasant land' of rural Derbyshire even though I worked for thirty years in some of the tougher parts of Derby. It is easy for people such as me to moralise and pontificate about how others should behave when my only first hand experience (these days) of the changes in society is the fact that there is a 'Polish option' on the local GP's check in screen.

The simple fact is, imo, that our unthought through strategy on immigration has placed enormous stress on some of the poorer areas of our country and inner cities. Personally I do not blame immigrants themselves at all for these problems however my perception may well be different had my children been taught in a school where there were several other languages in their class or where the schools and medical centres are heavily oversubscribed.

Now I know Tricky will rush to climb aboard that last paragraph and offer his agreement but that is not the point and frankly, I don't need or seek his support, but we do need to recognise that the problem has been caused by politicians, not migrants, and that the problem of overstretched educational, medical and social housing facilities is what now needs addressing. There is no escaping the fact that it will be expensive but it is essential if we are to heal our broken society and stop the rise of increasingly bitter, twisted and dangerous right wing extremism as personified by the likes of the BNP, Farage, Johnson and probably Tricky to varying degrees.

Unfortunately the Brexit vote has, perversely and in all probability, made it all the less likely that we will be able to afford such necessary spending. Catch 22...again!

[Trickytreesreds]

'I'm just teasing out some of the reasons that cause people like Tricky, and millions of slightly less radical equivalents, to exist.'

I think Andy that we have to accept that some people's experiences and upbringing have led them to be somewhere between socially conservative and prejudiced, racist and xenophobic. The problem for slightly left of centre folk like myself is that we have to separate out what is nothing other than prejudiced bigotry from what actually has some foundation.

To discriminate against others on the basis of skin colour, ethnicity, religion or place of origin will always be totally unacceptable as far as I am concerned. However to fail to recognise that the liberal left has created some of the problem by, for instance, its insistence on an inflexible adherence to the creed of political correctness and that the poor handling - by successive governments - of immigration has been at fault for fostering resentment, would be foolish.

I have been brought up to be and went through my student daze somewhere to the left of centre on the political spectrum. Equally I have spent virtually all my adult (post student) life living in the 'green and pleasant land' of rural Derbyshire even though I worked for thirty years in some of the tougher parts of Derby. It is easy for people such as me to moralise and pontificate about how others should behave when my only first hand experience (these days) of the changes in society is the fact that there is a 'Polish option' on the local GP's check in screen.

The simple fact is, imo, that our unthought through strategy on immigration has placed enormous stress on some of the poorer areas of our country and inner cities. Personally I do not blame immigrants themselves at all for these problems however my perception may well be different had my children been taught in a school where there were several other languages in their class or where the schools and medical centres are heavily oversubscribed.

Now I know Tricky will rush to climb aboard that last paragraph and offer his agreement but that is not the point and frankly, I don't need or seek his support, but we do need to recognise that the problem has been caused by politicians, not migrants, and that the problem of overstretched educational, medical and social housing facilities is what now needs addressing. There is no escaping the fact that it will be expensive but it is essential if we are to heal our broken society and stop the rise of increasingly bitter, twisted and dangerous right wing extremism as personified by the likes of the BNP, Farage, Johnson and probably Tricky to varying degrees.

Unfortunately the Brexit vote has, perversely and in all probability, made it all the less likely that we will be able to afford such necessary spending. Catch 22...again!

You're close ramang but not quite there.
I'm a nationalist. Not BNP or right wing.
Too much, too soon by politicians who will never have to deal with the repercussions of their decisions.
They live in their ivory towers and don't see the results.
The fact remains, the lower end of society suffers by elite decisions.
Medical/schools/services/housing

Time to regroup and readdress Think military. Analyse and assess,
Yes the politicians are to blame. They don't suffer the repercussions.
That has to change.

[macstheman]

More chance that the polar ice-caps won't continue to melt than our leaders changing!!

[swaledale]

You're close ramang but not quite there.
I'm a nationalist. Not BNP or right wing.
Too much, too soon by politicians who will never have to deal with the repercussions of their decisions.
They live in their ivory towers and don't see the results.
The fact remains, the lower end of society suffers by elite decisions.
Medical/schools/services/housing

Time to regroup and readdress Think military. Analyse and assess,
Yes the politicians are to blame. They don't suffer the repercussions.
That has to change.

WTF! Mm your clearly not a rational thinker Tricky and its amusing to see how easy it is to light the blue touch pper and see you fizz away in your own self righteous rage!

Shame your numerous previous posts have destroyed any credibility you may have had, because some of what you say has merit, but then you quote from utter rubbish from a tabloid headline!

Still I'm sure you believe what you believe is true, keep the faith I'm sure your wish for revolution will see justice restored to the meek, after all ain't that been the way since history began - the righteous have inherited the earth?

Anyway i thought it was the EU to blame?

Its been a blast reading your hyperbole, shame most of the theory does not fit the facts, but no doubt it keeps you off the streets! or maybe you should be on the streets with your brothers and sisters (assuming you agree with gender equality, seeing as you don't seem so keen on racial equality)!

Just a thought, the French had their revolution a while back, got rid of their elites in a rather gruesome manner as i recall, I take it the revolution you aspire to will have a different outome?

anyway have a long cool drink stop frothing at the mouth and go and watch your beloved Reds...that should bring some realsim back to your addled brain!

Toodle Pip old chap!

[swaledale]

More chance that the polar ice-caps won't continue to melt than our leaders changing!!

The electorate gets who it votes for!

[roger_ramjet]

News today of massive hike in people seeking Irish passports in the wake of the Brexit vote: up 73%. So Messrs Swale and Mangara, here's your way out (or rather in). Surely everyone has a bit of historic Irish in them?

It does raise an interesting question though concerning the historic concessionary, pre EU, status of the Irish working in UK. Will this be reinstated or will the Irish have to join the queue at the visa office along with the Bulgarians, Romanians and Poles??

[ramAnag]

No thanks Rog...got some Welsh but no Irish that I know of. Might be a lazy story anyway. Not sure how many would normally be seeking an Irish passport but 73% of not very many is perhaps not an awful lot.

Think today's bigger story is this wretched woman who's picked up her half a million for a year's 'work' and walked away from the child abuse enquiry. The British establishment gets away with it again...a good example of something that maybe should have been handled by a European court? We certainly don't seem to have a clue how to handle it...wasted a fortune and achieved nothing other than leaving the victims utterly frustrated and let down.

[roger_ramjet]

Too many of them...chemical castration might work as deterrent. Boycott Greggs too! Funny how so many of the alleged petpetrators are from the teaching sector. Guess it affords good opportunity

[ramAnag]

'Petpetrators'...bit of a Freudian slip there, but a good invented word in the circumstances.
Think these suspects are 'bigger fish' than teachers. Judges, politicians and 'local worthies' I think. Take your point though and this creates a problem with these 'lowest common denominators' in that it's become sadly almost 'suspect' for males to work in primary schools hence the dearth of good male role models in primary education.

What have Greggs done?

[roger_ramjet]

Son of Greggs founder up on child abuse charges earlier this year.

Plus selling ****e food