OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;38408174]Jesus Ram, I thought you and I had discovered some common ground but you really are pushing it. Me - 'as a person who avoids tax' - ffs let's keep this in perspective. I have been honest...throughout my working professional life I have never avoided or evaded paying tax or even fiddled my expenses. There have however been a few occasions when I have done some small jobs for a bit of cash and haven't declared it. It amounts to hundreds of pounds and is on a par with Andy saying that although he would never have 'bootlegged' music or films in his home he isn't averse to asking for a 'cash' price.
I've also had adulterous relationships, been divorced, driven my car at 30 mph over the speed limit, smoked dope and once, when I was about 16, stole a Crosby Stills, Nash and Young album which, to my shame, I still possess. Unlike you apparently I'm not a perfect person but in terms of doing good and bad things I reckon I'm comfortably in credit if not apparently the self righteous paragon of virtue that is Ram59.


You may as well come all the way out the closet now Ramanag. You missed off the bestiality and necrophilia lol

[AdiSalisbury]

I have to substantiate, that was a joke, I don't want people thinking less of me

[ramAnag]

You have completely missed my point, I have not claimed to be whiter than white. What I have said, is that being a person doing similar practises as yourself, I suspect that if I was in the same position as those corporate/rich people, them I would also be tempted to avoid tax. It would be on the grounds of I've paid enough tax and others do it, so why shouldn't I. But I would never act as a scrounger. That's why they offend my morals more.

I keep asking and you never answer, AT WHAT FIGURE do you consider tax avoidance to be immoral? You admit to hundreds of pounds but don't like millions, where in the middle do you draw the line?

BTW, just £100 of your hundreds, by every tax payer would add up to £3 billion, enough to build 6 major hospitals!

Okay, let's try again. Let's take the two main examples of my 'dishonest earnings'. Sometime ago a friend of mine fitted some hard wood double glazed units in my house and provided the same service for my neighbour. I stained and treated my windows and my more elderly neighbour, apparently impressed with the results but rather less competent on a ladder, asked me to do the same for him. I did the job for him which earned me about £300. I was working at the time and didn't declare those earnings...perhaps you would have gone to the trouble, I didn't.
Example two...about four years ago I had a book published...still available on Amazon actually. By the time the publisher had taken his share my 5% equated to around £100...I didn't declare this life changing amount...again, would you have...honestly?
You ask, 'where do I draw the line' and the answer is it's not about lines...it's not that black and white. That's like saying exceeding the speed limit by 30mph is always worse than exceeding it by 20mph or theft is theft whatever the circumstances...just total over simplification and nonsense.
Your objection to scroungers is totally understandable...your reasoning that 'I've paid enough tax and others do it' so that's okay...totally flawed. At the end of the day serious tax evasion/avoidance costs us all a great deal more than benefit claimers but while you look down on one group you still seek to excuse the other. Makes no sense at all to me.

[Ram59]

OK, I'll try and make it as short and simple as possible.

Like you I have had a couple of opportunities to avoid a little bit of tax, because of this I can't be sure that if I was in the fortunate position of earning large amounts of money, and Incidently directly or indirectly paying lots of tax, that I wouldn't employ a clever accountant myself. I can't vilify somebody for doing something that I may do myself, given the opportunity.

An example; a friend of mine, in 15 years has built up a company with a £10m turnover. This results in near £4m in direct and indirect taxation going to the government, even if he doesn't pay a penny in personal tax. I could understand his reluctance to pay more than he needs to. If he hadn't started up 15 years ago, the government would £4m a year worse off.

I question at what level you would draw the line, especially as it isn't illegal?

[roger_ramjet]

Mangara - I hope you are proud of your tav avoidance being oartly responsible for the NHS being unable to fund 24 new hospitals, using Ram59's figures.

As its confessiond day, I route a couple of million of my earnings each year into a Vanuatu life insurance product which then lends me the money tax free and interest free. When I die the debt will be paid off by the life insurance payout. Is that immoral enough?

[Trickytreesreds]

Okay, let's try again. Let's take the two main examples of my 'dishonest earnings'. Sometime ago a friend of mine fitted some hard wood double glazed units in my house and provided the same service for my neighbour. I stained and treated my windows and my more elderly neighbour, apparently impressed with the results but rather less competent on a ladder, asked me to do the same for him. I did the job for him which earned me about £300. I was working at the time and didn't declare those earnings...perhaps you would have gone to the trouble, I didn't.
Example two...about four years ago I had a book published...still available on Amazon actually. By the time the publisher had taken his share my 5% equated to around £100...I didn't declare this life changing amount...again, would you have...honestly?
You ask, 'where do I draw the line' and the answer is it's not about lines...it's not that black and white. That's like saying exceeding the speed limit by 30mph is always worse than exceeding it by 20mph or theft is theft whatever the circumstances...just total over simplification and nonsense.
Your objection to scroungers is totally understandable...your reasoning that 'I've paid enough tax and others do it' so that's okay...totally flawed. At the end of the day serious tax evasion/avoidance costs us all a great deal more than benefit claimers but while you look down on one group you still seek to excuse the other. Makes no sense at all to me.

You're a monster

;-)

[ramAnag]

OK, I'll try and make it as short and simple as possible.

Like you I have had a couple of opportunities to avoid a little bit of tax, because of this I can't be sure that if I was in the fortunate position of earning large amounts of money, and Incidently directly or indirectly paying lots of tax, that I wouldn't employ a clever accountant myself. I can't vilify somebody for doing something that I may do myself, given the opportunity.

An example; a friend of mine, in 15 years has built up a company with a £10m turnover. This results in near £4m in direct and indirect taxation going to the government, even if he doesn't pay a penny in personal tax. I could understand his reluctance to pay more than he needs to. If he hadn't started up 15 years ago, the government would £4m a year worse off.

I question at what level you would draw the line, especially as it isn't illegal?

You're obsessed with 'lines' Ram...I've told you...imo this is a moral issue...you simply can't draw one of your beloved lines and say, 'above that is okay...below that is wrong'. As you said this morning, we're just going round in circles and we've just arrived back at where you and Triz left it days ago, so I accept I'm not going to win you over. Suffice it to say that I'm just fascinated by the fact that you vilify one group but defend another despite accepting that the latter group actually costs the country more and all I'll suggest is...make sure you 'know thy enemy'.
Anyway, following Roger's disclosure (were you 'possed' when you 'writ' that Rog?) maybe you could turn your disapproval away from my paltry amount and consider his position. Quite possibly makes much of his wealth by advising others how to avoid tax and then appears to secrete his wealth in an offshore account...I guess that just makes him a real 'player'.

£2m earnings Rog...all I can say is...'gissa job'...'I'll pay the tax...promise'.

[roger_ramjet]

A real player and an inveterate liar.....

[Ram59]

You're obsessed with 'lines' Ram...I've told you...imo this is a moral issue...you simply can't draw one of your beloved lines and say, 'above that is okay...below that is wrong'. As you said this morning, we're just going round in circles and we've just arrived back at where you and Triz left it days ago, so I accept I'm not going to win you over. Suffice it to say that I'm just fascinated by the fact that you vilify one group but defend another despite accepting that the latter group actually costs the country more and all I'll suggest is...make sure you 'know thy enemy'.
Anyway, following Roger's disclosure (were you 'possed' when you 'writ' that Rog?) maybe you could turn your disapproval away from my paltry amount and consider his position. Quite possibly makes much of his wealth by advising others how to avoid tax and then appears to secrete his wealth in an offshore account...I guess that just makes him a real 'player'.

£2m earnings Rog...all I can say is...'gissa job'...'I'll pay the tax...promise'.

So, a business man in my friends position is responsible for £4m of tax paid each year and giving jobs too about 50 people who spend money in the local community, is vilified by you when his accountant LEGALLY reduces his tax bill by 50k, for example.

Tell me, if he and a scrounger had never existed, who would the country miss most, in terms of money and the community?

[ramAnag]

So, a business man in my friends position is responsible for £4m of tax paid each year and giving jobs too about 50 people who spend money in the local community, is vilified by you when his accountant LEGALLY reduces his tax bill by 50k, for example.

Tell me, if he and a scrounger had never existed, who would the country miss most, in terms of money and the community?

Where have I 'vilified your friend'? I know virtually nothing about him. I'm saying nothing other than, just as there are genuine benefit claimers as well as dishonest ones so there are some of the self employed - my '£11k' former acquaintance springs to mind - and certain corporations who go out of their way to manipulate every possible loophole and a whole industry built around such avoidance. They are the people I'm 'vilifying'...along with 'Moneybags Ramjet' of course.

You openly despise the genuine scroungers, and I don't entirely disagree with your stance. President Trump (Christ it hurt saying that!) describes his ability to avoid paying tax as a sign of his intelligence. As I say...fine lines.

[mistaram]

The only people in this country ho actually pay the correct amount of tax are people on PAYE Everyone else from window cleaners to chief executive's myself included has some sort of fiddle going on Has to castigating scroungers theirs are absolute peanuts to some of schemes I know are going on The worst thing ever was bringing in Self Assessment forms its just so open to abuse

[ramAnag]

Thanks mista...support from an unlikely source in this case...and all I've ever been saying. Castigate genuine scroungers by all means Ram59 but...if things are going to change you need to choose your targets more carefully.

[Ram59]

I stick to my views that there is no place in society for people who think they don't need to contribute in any way and think that the rest of us should keep them. That's immoral.

[ramAnag]

I stick to my views that there is no place in society for people who think they don't need to contribute in any way and think that the rest of us should keep them. That's immoral.

Immoral? Not sure...lazy, bone idle, irresponsible, deplorable and, sadly, learned behaviour, I could agree with, but I do think mista has identified where the most major problem lies...stop the immorality of self-assessment fraud and it'll make a much bigger difference...might even set an example to those more identifiable scroungers you and the media hate so much.

[mistaram]

Ram59 I can't argue with you that if they don't contribute it's immoral But even they have to pay their 20%Vat on everything When I know personally that very wealthy people in business have ways of getting it all back I've yet to meet a scrounger who managed to get a sweetheart deal from HMRC