OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[ramAnag]

Maybe you have inadvertently touched on the heart of the matter Andy. Would I vote for such a deal? That's really the point isn't it? Like everyone else, I'm not going to have the opportunity and that is why I feel so strongly about being led into this situation in the way we have.
At the time of the original Brexit vote we had little idea of what we were actually voting for...the day was won by an unsophisticated and unimformed, though I accept not entirely unjustified, emotional reaction against bureaucracy and immigration.
Almost a year on we, the electorate, are little wiser and yet we now face an election which is rapidly taking the form of a second referendum. There are enormous economic consequences that we are completely unclear about, single market or no single market, customs union or not, €60 billion, €100 billion bill or something quite different, rights for European citizens in the U.K. and likewise for U.K. citizens abroad or not?
These are the things we should have voted on in the first place but the information wasn't there. Even now, despite all the sound and fury, we are no nearer knowing and things have just been reduced to such sound bites as 'strong and stable', 'an awkward woman', 'take back our borders' etc and I have to conclude that I have never known such a time when the electorate, about a third of which don't appear to give a stuff, have been given so much opportunity to vote and so little detail about what they are actually voting for. It's truly absurd but, as I'll be out of the country again, my postal vote is sorted and it will, unequivocally, be going to the LibDems.

[swaledale]

Just as a matter of interest:

If, after a week, the negotiators came back and announced 'we have a deal. No free movement of people, no rule from Brussels, no tarrifs either way on goods and services, UK can do trade deals elsewhere, and all that for a weekly fee from UK to EU of £100m', would you vote for it?

We wont get such a deal and we won't get to vote so its a bit like asking would I vote for a deal where everybody was paid £50K a week irrespective of what they do or who they are!

[roger_ramjet]

LibDem manifesto promises 2nd Brexit referendum. FFS grow up. Still they could promise the return of Jesus Christ and Hitler for all it mattered - Im not sure why any of the deposit losers bother with manifestos.

[ramAnag]

LibDem manifesto promises 2nd Brexit referendum. FFS grow up. Still they could promise the return of Jesus Christ and Hitler for all it mattered - Im not sure why any of the deposit losers bother with manifestos.

I think they're talking about having a second referendum after the terms of the Brexit agreement are known. It's easy to find fault and it is complex I know...more complex than I or the vast majority of the electorate are probably capable of dealing with...but isn't there some degree of sense in knowing what we are all actually voting for before a final decision is reached?

At the moment we are being led into negotiations, the terms of which we are still no wiser about, which will have huge implications for the future, that only a minority of the people actually voted for and by someone who was opposed to Brexit this time last year.
Don't suppose it'll make much difference, but is that actually any more sensible than what the LibDems are proposing?

[AdiSalisbury]

Just a shame none of the opposition want to offer a government with strong negotiating principles for exiting the EU, much easier to say, "have free stuff, don't vote for nasty tories".

[ramAnag]

Just a shame none of the opposition want to offer a government with strong negotiating principles for exiting the EU, much easier to say, "have free stuff, don't vote for nasty tories".

Not sure who's saying that Adi? My question would be...these 'strong negotiating principles'...when are we going to know the terms we are actually negotiating for? Seems astonishing to me that almost eleven months on we still hear terms like 'hard' and 'soft' Brexit but are no nearer knowing what will actually be involved.
Can you honestly tell me what Brexit really means and what the implications will be?

[roger_ramjet]

No idea what terms are but the component treaties that make up the EU constitution do not allow what you want ramAnag. You have to decide to leave then negotiate. Not negotiate an out and then decide if you want to do it. Thats how they lock everyone in and avoid continuous assessments of whether to stay or go by all nations who might be a net contributor one year.

As for Adis point, I totally agree. Labour in particular is trying to buy votes with a spending spree - but at whose eventual cost? They say the rich, the bankers, the Tory cronies - the usual demonised targets. Slam companies with big tax hikes, renationalise services (presumably with big new sovereign debt). Its a "free stuff manifesto" but of course it will only really appeal to those who typically vote labour anyway and wont win them the marginals they need.

The inverse correlation between corporation tax hikes and growth are all too plain to see. The losers in this policy are the workforce through stagnant wages, reduced investment and growth and/or accelerting inflation. But it looks pretty on paper - like the Hobbits ring.

[Andy_Faber]

You have to decide to leave then negotiate. Not negotiate an out and then decide if you want to do it.

Regretably David Cameron DID do the latter, and look where that got him. In retrospect he must realise he made two of the biggest errors of judgement ever in British politics - first to think he alone could 'negotiate' with the EU bureaucrats and come back with anything substantive, and second to then put that to the general public to pass judgement on. I'm not sure when he would have felt the bigger ****, when he came back with those four crumbs of compromise or when he strode out of No. 10 on 24th June

Personally I DON'T want to know what our negotiators are aiming for, apart from 'winning the day'. I'm in a the middle of a few negotiations at the mo and I can't think of anything worse than showing my hand to those on the other side. Nor in fact would I ever settle for a bad deal over no deal, so I guess that aligns me with Imelda May too.

Just thank God we don't have Rams4Justice doing our negotiating for us

[AdiSalisbury]

Sure: Leaving a large state political and economic union that should only have ever been a trade arrangement. We then either negotiate a new trade agreement as an outside party, or trade with EU nations under WTO regulations.

The Tory party (for whom I've never voted for BTW), set out their negotiating principles last year. None of the opposition parties have set out / made public their principles, unless they're happy to stick to the Tory plan? On such an important topic, I'm surprised the opposition have kept so quiet on the issue, other than the LibDem "we'll give you a 2nd vote", which doesn't inspire me with any confidence in them.

Example of the giving away free stuff - Labour promising to remove tuition fees. If they want to write off my outstanding student loan I'd be delighted, however it's a hollow promise paying lip service to young voters and avoids them putting forward a more coherent plan for government.

[roger_ramjet]

Waiving the student loans retrospectively is surely never going to happen. What happens to those (few) foolhardy souls that told their children: "don't wrack up debt, we will pay the tuition fees" - a sort of advance on your inheritance. Would they get a refund?

if its done on a going forward basis then it has a chance of working on a monetary basis, but no way retrospective. It will buy the vote of all those 12 to 17 year-olds who don't fancy paying for their higher education though, so that gives Corbyn, erm, no votes.

[ramAnag]

I'd imagine that until 'Darling Buds'' announcement two or three weeks ago none of the parties thought they had to set out their 'negotiating principles' Adi.

Take your point about some of Labour's promises. Agree with many of the principles of their manifesto but have reservations over the ability of the current main LP 'players' to cost it all out properly. Still, at least they've provided a manifesto...more than some.

I fear I'm beginning to sound a little too much like R4J on how to sell players here and I'm aware that Andy, at least, has infinitely greater negotiating experience but, there are still many decisions to be made on what type of Brexit we are aiming for, so wouldn't it be better - seeing as we went down the ludicrous referendum route in the first place - to have a further referendum when there is actually some flesh on the bones of what we are actually aiming for?

[Ram59]

So how would this further referendum be put?

Are you in favour of the agreement reached?

a, yes
b, no, I want a better deal and then have another referendum
c, no, I want to stay in
d, no, I want a hard brexit
e, none of the above (whatever that could be)

[ramAnag]

So how would this further referendum be put?

Are you in favour of the agreement reached?

a, yes
b, no, I want a better deal and then have another referendum
c, no, I want to stay in
d, no, I want a hard brexit
e, none of the above (whatever that could be)

Very difficult isn't it?
I suppose the crucial aspects would involve questions about the Single Market and the Customs Union, membership or otherwise of which was never really mentioned first time around.
Having said that, the vast majority - and I do not exclude myself - aren't actually capable of reaching an informed decision on such complexities.
Appreciate what you are hinting at but do you still honestly feel that an informed and democratic decision was reached last June...i.e. people understood all the complexities and implications before a decision was reached which represented a clear majority and thus the 'will of the people'.

[Trickytreesreds]

Very difficult isn't it?
I suppose the crucial aspects would involve questions about the Single Market and the Customs Union, membership or otherwise of which was never really mentioned first time around.
Having said that, the vast majority - and I do not exclude myself - aren't actually capable of reaching an informed decision on such complexities.
Appreciate what you are hinting at but do you still honestly feel that an informed and democratic decision was reached last June...i.e. people understood all the complexities and implications before a decision was reached which represented a clear majority and thus the 'will of the people'.

According to current pols Ramanag, 68% now want Brexit to happen. Except certain MP's pushing the same agenda as you.
Why do you cling to ill informed stance?
The vote form said, IN OR OUT.
Everyone had to make up their own mind and it appears very clearly that folks who were in some doubt, have realised the EU are a bag of ****s.
You are entitled to your views on this, but the tide has definitely turned and ****s like Clegg have been outed.

[Ram59]

Very difficult isn't it?
I suppose the crucial aspects would involve questions about the Single Market and the Customs Union, membership or otherwise of which was never really mentioned first time around.
Having said that, the vast majority - and I do not exclude myself - aren't actually capable of reaching an informed decision on such complexities.
Appreciate what you are hinting at but do you still honestly feel that an informed and democratic decision was reached last June...i.e. people understood all the complexities and implications before a decision was reached which represented a clear majority and thus the 'will of the people'.

Forget about last June, it's done with. What you and the libdems are asking for is another referendum. What I'm saying is that I don't think it's possible as there are 4 different choices. Bloody hell, we only got 37% when there were 2 choices. You'd really go off on one, if we had a hard brexit with 18%!

Tell me the alternative referendum.