OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[Trickytreesreds]

It’s far from perfect I know but if there is as much ‘unrest’ in Europe as you suggest, why not remain and fight our corner, shouldn’t be too hard if, as you say the French and Germans are just as unhappy as the Brexiteers.

I would agree with this, if we was arguing with the French and German peoples. But we are not.
We are trying to change the Junkers/Merkels/ Verhofstadt's of the EU who have the master plan at heart. The only thing they change, is the time table, when things get too heated. It's push,push,push, pause till the heat dies down.

Again it needs to be said. What started as a free trade club, is now a political movement. Don't co operate. Then we'll do our best to hurt you in the pocket until your conform. Sounds very much like bullying to me.

[Ram59]

I agree with you Anag about arming teachers, what happens when one is pushed too far by an unruly class, he loses it and shoots the lot of them!

Also agree with tricky about people being forced to conform. Wasn't it the Irish and one other eu country which had referendums on joining the euro and basically had to keep voting until they got the 'correct' result?

[ramAnag]

I agree with you Anag about arming teachers, what happens when one is pushed too far by an unruly class, he loses it and shoots the lot of them!

Also agree with tricky about people being forced to conform. Wasn't it the Irish and one other eu country which had referendums on joining the euro and basically had to keep voting until they got the 'correct' result?

Jeez, Ram...that’s twice in a week! The scenario you speak of isn’t too far fetched. If they armed the staff at Merrill on a bad day, half of Allenton could be gone by tea time. Seriously though...it is just insane.

Tricky just reminds me of that Monty Python piece...’What have the Romans ever done for us?’

Substitute EU for ‘Romans’ and the list goes something like...
Provides an estimated 3.1m jobs which was expected to rise to around 4m by 2030....
Makes holidaying throughout Europe safer, cheaper and easier and also provides important access to emergency healthcare....
Provides significant subsidies for British farmers.....
Passed numerous laws to provide protection for British and European workers....
Provides organised protection against terrorism, cyber crime and people traffickers....
Gives us greater influence instead of being an isolated little island....
Gives us the easiest possible access to the World’s biggest economy....

Sure, like the Romans the EU has it’s failings too, but I can’t believe the likes of you and Tricky are prepared to throw all that away.

[Ram59]

Jeez, Ram...that’s twice in a week! The scenario you speak of isn’t too far fetched. If they armed the staff at Merrill on a bad day, half of Allenton could be gone by tea time. Seriously though...it is just insane.

Tricky just reminds me of that Monty Python piece...’What have the Romans ever done for us?’

Substitute EU for ‘Romans’ and the list goes something like...
Provides an estimated 3.1m jobs which was expected to rise to around 4m by 2030....
Makes holidaying throughout Europe safer, cheaper and easier and also provides important access to emergency healthcare....
Provides significant subsidies for British farmers.....
Passed numerous laws to provide protection for British and European workers....
Provides organised protection against terrorism, cyber crime and people traffickers....
Gives us greater influence instead of being an isolated little island....
Gives us the easiest possible access to the World’s biggest economy....

Sure, like the Romans the EU has it’s failings too, but I can’t believe the likes of you and Tricky are prepared to throw all that away.

That's the point, there are major failings at the top with people who don't seem to be accountable to anyone.

A good common sense brexit would result in us leaving and gaining a bit more independence but maintaining our trading partnership. This would also be in the interests of the German car makers, French farmers, Spanish and Greek hoteliers etc, etc. But the leaders of the EU are determined to punish us, no matter what the cost is to their member states. That's not the type of leader, you need to be running things. If all trade with the EU ceased tomorrow, it would be catastrophic for the UK, but also to many millions of eu citizens who depend on us.

The many leaked memos and soundbites coming from the EU side of the negotiating table make me even more determined that I don't want my life to be run by these people. They don't give a toss about anyone else, they're just interested in their own power game whilst being set up for life with their massive salaries and pensions.

After agreeing with you twice this month I going to have a lie down now.

[AdiSalisbury]

Just to note, UK employment protection is now (though not originally, the EU can take credit for previously improving worker conditions) generally far better than the rest of the EU. The only expected change as a "direct" outcome of leaving the union (as things change all the time), is removal of the 48 hour week protection, which is no more than an administrative inconvenience in most cases where people either sign an opt out arrangement, or don't take on the job in the 1st place, ie expectations are set.

[ramAnag]

That's the point, there are major failings at the top with people who don't seem to be accountable to anyone.

A good common sense brexit would result in us leaving and gaining a bit more independence but maintaining our trading partnership. This would also be in the interests of the German car makers, French farmers, Spanish and Greek hoteliers etc, etc. But the leaders of the EU are determined to punish us, no matter what the cost is to their member states. That's not the type of leader, you need to be running things. If all trade with the EU ceased tomorrow, it would be catastrophic for the UK, but also to many millions of eu citizens who depend on us.

The many leaked memos and soundbites coming from the EU side of the negotiating table make me even more determined that I don't want my life to be run by these people. They don't give a toss about anyone else, they're just interested in their own power game whilst being set up for life with their massive salaries and pensions.

After agreeing with you twice this month I going to have a lie down now.

No, the point is...we didn’t vote for ‘a good common sense Brexit’ - assuming there may be such a thing. In fact we didn’t know what was being voted for, and we still don’t.
I understand you having little faith in many of the EU leaders, though I don’t think they’re any worse than the majority of our home grown ones, but honestly...what was the point of a vote which barely anyone, even the clued up ones, really knew the details and consequences of?

[MadAmster]

Following a meeting at Chequers it seems that Mayhem and her cabinet have decided on their strategy for the rest of the negotiations. That is good news as, up to now it would seem, they haven't gone into any meetings with an idea of what they want. The EU appears to have had their stall set out almost from day 1, nearly 2 years ago. The UK has gone in, let the EU say what THEY want and then pooh-poohed it without much of an idea of what the UK position is.

When I go into negotiations of any kind I always know what I want to happen, what my must haves are, what my negotiating pieces are aka things that I might agree to leave out or water down in some way in oredr to be seen to be being reasonable and also a couple of things that are on my first document that I know they nwill never give me or that I am not really bothered about.

You then set about scrapping the sharp edges, giving and taking and compromising. That is how agreements are reached that both sides can live with. Unfortunately, Mayhen and Co seem to have gone in empty handed and that has been a great disservice to the UK populace.

[ramAnag]

Following a meeting at Chequers it seems that Mayhem and her cabinet have decided on their strategy for the rest of the negotiations. That is good news as, up to now it would seem, they haven't gone into any meetings with an idea of what they want. The EU appears to have had their stall set out almost from day 1, nearly 2 years ago. The UK has gone in, let the EU say what THEY want and then pooh-poohed it without much of an idea of what the UK position is.

When I go into negotiations of any kind I always know what I want to happen, what my must haves are, what my negotiating pieces are aka things that I might agree to leave out or water down in some way in oredr to be seen to be being reasonable and also a couple of things that are on my first document that I know they nwill never give me or that I am not really bothered about.

You then set about scrapping the sharp edges, giving and taking and compromising. That is how agreements are reached that both sides can live with. Unfortunately, Mayhen and Co seem to have gone in empty handed and that has been a great disservice to the UK populace.

Take your point completely about negotiations MA, but can you honestly expect the likes of May and Hammond, on the one hand, to agree with the likes of Johnson and Gove on the other? That’s without taking into account the major divisions within the rest of the governing Party...the Soubry v Rees Mogg/IBS sections for example.
Remember how this all started? Cameron trying to bring his own Party to order and quell the extremists on the Right...to quote someone or other...‘nothing has changed...nothing has changed!’
Despite representing twenty seven/eight nations the EU appears to speak with one voice, something neither our country nor even our Government can manage.

[Ram59]

Take your point completely about negotiations MA, but can you honestly expect the likes of May and Hammond, on the one hand, to agree with the likes of Johnson and Gove on the other? That’s without taking into account the major divisions within the rest of the governing Party...the Soubry v Rees Mogg/IBS sections for example.
Remember how this all started? Cameron trying to bring his own Party to order and quell the extremists on the Right...to quote someone or other...‘nothing has changed...nothing has changed!’
Despite representing twenty seven/eight nations the EU appears to speak with one voice, something neither our country nor even our Government can manage.

There lies the problem with the EU, for all this veto talk, everybody has to toe the line set out by the chosen few. Do you really believe that all 27 countries are in complete agreement with Barnier & Co? Don't you think that there are many millions of eu citizens worried that they may push us too far and put their livelihoods at risk?

Remember, as a result of Brexit, new markets will be available to UK companies, but no new markets will be available to eu companies. In a bad brexit UK companies MAY be able to recover or even increase their sales but eu companies can only suffer from a bad brexit.

[ramAnag]

There lies the problem with the EU, for all this veto talk, everybody has to toe the line set out by the chosen few. Do you really believe that all 27 countries are in complete agreement with Barnier & Co? Don't you think that there are many millions of eu citizens worried that they may push us too far and put their livelihoods at risk?

Remember, as a result of Brexit, new markets will be available to UK companies, but no new markets will be available to eu companies. In a bad brexit UK companies MAY be able to recover or even increase their sales but eu companies can only suffer from a bad brexit.

With respect Ram, you’re missing my point. I hope the optimism of your final paragraph is justified but my point was...even with all the different interests and nationalities involved in the EU, they still do a better job of providing a united front than our inept and duplicitous representatives.

[Ram59]

With respect Ram, you’re missing my point. I hope the optimism of your final paragraph is justified but my point was...even with all the different interests and nationalities involved in the EU, they still do a better job of providing a united front than our inept and duplicitous representatives.

Likewise, with respect Anag, Brexit is THE major talking point for our politicians and press. It isn't so important throughout the EU, yet. We'll see what happens when they have to vote on the acceptance of any agreement that is thrown together. Then I expect the arguments to start. The right wing press are already printing snippets of dissenting eu politicians and business people wishing a more sympathetic approach to negotiations.

[ramAnag]

So do you really believe that May, Hammond and Rudd are ‘singing from the same hymn sheet’, as far as Brexit is concerned, as Johnson, Gove, Davies and Fox? They’re not even singing in the same parish imo.

[Ram59]

So do you really believe that May, Hammond and Rudd are ‘singing from the same hymn sheet’, as far as Brexit is concerned, as Johnson, Gove, Davies and Fox? They’re not even singing in the same parish imo.

No, I've never claimed that they are. As you have said, Brexit is not a defined standard, different people will accept different levels of Brexit. You are the one claiming that the whole of the EU are singing from the same hymn sheet. All I'm saying is wait and see. Maybe the district of Wallonia in Belgium will scupper any agreement, like they held up the trade agreement with Canada.

[MadAmster]

Take your point completely about negotiations MA, but can you honestly expect the likes of May and Hammond, on the one hand, to agree with the likes of Johnson and Gove on the other? That’s without taking into account the major divisions within the rest of the governing Party...the Soubry v Rees Mogg/IBS sections for example.
Remember how this all started? Cameron trying to bring his own Party to order and quell the extremists on the Right...to quote someone or other...‘nothing has changed...nothing has changed!’
Despite representing twenty seven/eight nations the EU appears to speak with one voice, something neither our country nor even our Government can manage.

At first sight no but, according to press reports ( ), the cabinet has agreed. We shall see

[ramAnag]

C’mon guys, let’s not lose sight of the facts and what’s been said here.
Ram59...I haven’t said ‘the whole of the EU are singing from the same hymn sheet’, I said they’re doing a better job of ‘speaking with one voice/providing a united front’ than our single disunited Government.
Your points about Brexit not being a ‘defined standard’ and ‘different people accepting different levels of Brexit’ is though, imo, an example of you absolutely hitting the nail on the head.
You are so right...twenty months on we still don’t know what type (‘defined standard’) or ‘level of Brexit’ we are dealing with or aiming for, so how could the referendum of June 2016 have any credibility and doesn’t it just show that, having got ourselves into the current mess, there has to be some sort of free vote once the consequences are actually known?

MA, if you believe press reports of the Cabinet being ‘agreed’ you’ve been away from the UK for too long.
There are at least four members of that Cabinet - Gove, Leadsom, Johnson and Fox - who all covet the role of PM. That doesn’t take into account the Rees Mogg supporters. May, Hammond and Rudd have more in common with moderate Labour than the right wing of their own party and the post referendum behaviour of Gove and Johnson would have put Machiavelli to shame. They are anything but ‘agreed’ or ‘united’ and as such, as they prove on an almost daily basis, are unfit to lead the country in these negotiations.